Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond

bruce, i havent tried to locate a CA state record, and if you cant find it, maybe no one has ever submitted. anyways, chasing records seems to me like too much trouble when i'm happy just knowing myself i got some happy healthy hogs....and having a few of you guys oooh and ahhh at the pics.

regarding maximum sizes....tell you the truth, after stocking those bad boys last year, i actually thought they would shrink from lack of forage (LMB fry). what a surprise that they're still growing, and growing fat. makes me wonder if i could document a 12 or 13 incher at 1.5 lbs plus......then in my dreams i would lay claim to the consistenly largest GSF in north america

a small observation between my BG and GSF....the GSF definitely hang in different areas generally deeper and on the fringes of schooling BG. They are clearly the opportunists who use the perhaps less astute BG (i was going to say "dumber") to locate food sources. whether insects on surface or thrown pellets, the GSF lie in wait below the BG and when food is present on the surface, thrust themselves vertically through the BG school snatching the food before the slower BG, and quickly diving back down to the bottom. i watch variations of this every evening i'm able to give a hand feed or chase a few insects into pond.

The Georgia record was only 11 inches but weighed 1lb 7oz. Dr Peter Moyle who comes up most often when I'm researching GSF stated that the maximum size is 2.2 lbs. I can live with that.

That is equal to you catching a 20 lb LMB - it will not happen very often if at all. I don't think anyone on the forum has caught a LMB that size or even close.

Here for FishBase GSF

http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=3371

lgth -- 31cm - 12.205 in
wt --- 960 gm - 2.117 lbs

As it turns out I'll be able to try a GSF pond before my pond is ready. Mr. H, my neighbor, has several ponds including one that's about 1/5 acre located just behind his house. This pond is in rough shape now and may have suffered a fish kill. I offered to help him with the pond, which of course means asking you all to help me, help him. I mentioned my idea for a Greenie pond and he liked it enough to try it in his pond.

I think it's a great approach for this pond for a few reasons. Unlike his other ponds, this one is dependent on run-off from a fairly small watershed, so it's likely to get low at times. At this point it has lost about 2/3 of it's volume. GSF are often the last fish to survive in low water situations like this making them a good choice I think. I've read that they can survive DO down to 4 mg/L (I assume that's pretty low). A GSF pond matches Mr. H's goal of providing fun fishing for his grandchildren. If we can get decent sized fish then it will also provide a handy supply of good eating fish.

Here's what I know about the pond so far:

*The pond is about 12 years old.

*At full pool it's about 130 ft by 50 ft.

*It's maximum depth is about 10 ft, but it's down about 5 feet.

*Based on good clay content and Mr. H's observations the pond doesn't leak.

*It's had a duckweed (watermeal) problem which has been treated chemically without success.

*About 1 year ago (3) 11 inch GC were stocked, but no reduction in the watermeal was observed.

*No fish have been observed in several months, including the GC. (I don't know what was previously stocked, but will ask soon.)

*The pond has a good population of tadpoles and frogs.


I've caught 6 inch GSF in Mr. H's big pond, and I'm thinking that we could collect some to stock the small pond. Mr. H has some fish pellets and is willing to regularly hand feed.

Would it be wise to add some GSF now and hope for a spawn, or is it too late in the season?

Would it be better to add Fatheads and let them multiply before adding GSF?

Can the GSF thrive with the duckweed/watermeal? Can Gambusia?

Can the GSF thrive without a forage fish population, relying on tadpoles, insects, and pellet feeding?

Any input will be appreciated.

I agree ewest. I meant that I can live with a fish whose potential is 2.2lbs. A good number of scrappy 1lb fish is my primary goal.

My secondary goal is to beat the 1lb 7oz Ga record (and post my pic on Cecil's website).

Get rid of the DW first as it can kill all the fish even GSF and FH. Check out the DW posts here. In a small pond you can seine , drag or net most of the DW. Then be prepared to treat it until no more shows up. Spray the banks and anywhere you see it.

Also check the water/soil to see the alkalinity.

for mine, the heaviest i've noted so far since getting the boga is just a hair under 1.25 lb.

with dropping water levels ahead and subsequent concentration of forage....who knows, maybe 1.5 on the horizon? 1.75 by Fall???? still dreaming

good luck GW.

1.25 lbs would be a new state record here.

I just now found Jeff's Green Sunfish thread. Looks like I'm late to the party.

Jeffhasapond, DIED, I'm thinking we should start a Green Sunfish club. I'm working on some names.

Greenie
Appreciation
Group

Greenie
Association of
Superior
Pondmeisters

Cyanellus
Research &
Appreciation
Project

G.A.G.
G.A.S.P.
C.R.A.P.

hmm nice ring to all of them

i noticed my pic links were busted in jeff's old thread. i'll try and restore those. a while back i moved pics in photobucket from a general folder to a fish folder, that's probably when it happened.

..........perhaps i should consider an overnight package for you theo?

GW, you are now officially the 5th member of the Green Sunfish Club as follows:

Member #1 and Club President: Dave Davidson1

Member #2: Dave In El Dorado (aka DIED)

Member #3: Jeffhasapond

Member #4: Joey

Member #5: GW

A certificate will be in the mail shortly, unfortunately I traded the remaining decoder rings for a six pack of beer so you're out of luck there.


Joey was the last inductee to the club in this thread... GSF club membership

We don't have an official club name yet so perhaps would should take a vote after performing the secret hand shake.

I hate to tell you greenie lovers,...but ya'll are one rogue redear away from Armageddon.

Today I spoke with a person who has been managing ponds for over 20 years and currently works for a well respected pond management company. I asked him about a source for good GSF genes and of course he wanted to know why in the world I would want that. He seemed interested (or amazed), so he got the whole story. He has never heard of anyone managing for trophy Greenies. I mentioned a small group of misfits on the PB forum.

When I told him I intended to trap and transfer the smaller GSF to a LMB pond he said that in his experience GSF don't thrive in such a pond because the LMB prefer them over other lepomis. That's a good thing, me thinks.

Oh, and Bruce......

IN YOUR FACE!

That's classic. But oh so wrong.

I like them because the smaller ones are perfect bass forage. If they live, nothing messes with them but me. You'll know it when one gets on the line.

For quite awhile, I lived the mantra and tossed them on the bank. Then I noticed that they were kickin butts and takin names at feeding time. I like that.

I doubt that anyone has ever studied this. I wonder if the "undesirable" progeny from a HBG has the size capability of either parent. It would be interesting to see what would happen if the F1's from ML's GG's were allowed to grow undisturbed in his ponds with plentiful feed.

EXPERIMENT IDEA ALERT!
HINT! HINT! HINT!

Interesting question DD1. Is there a lot of variation in the shape/size in the F1's?

Which gets me thinking. Consider what makes GG special - big mouth and aggressiveness which helps them attain maximum BG size more quickly and easily than pure BG. Pure BG can get near 5lbs and it seems like GSF traits (big mouth/aggressiveness) are responsible for the rapid growth in GG. GSF already have the traits that should make it easy to manage them for trophy size (1 1/2lbs). If you can live with a fish that lacks the BG size potential, and be happy with fish upwards of 2lbs, then why not go with the pure genetics of the GSF? That way you don't have to change how you manage for future generations. In fact you can actively select better fish and improve your fishes genetics.

GSF are everything that GG are (just smaller)(and better LMB forage)(and genetically pure).

Which brings up another possible misconception about GSF, that they aren't as fecund as BG. What about this:

"Spawning occurs in Lepomis cyanellus when the water rises above 21 degrees Celsius (70 degrees Fahrenheit). It is thought that L. cyanellus may produce the same number of eggs as Lepomis macrochirus, which is roughly 50,000. It takes normally 1 to 2 days for the eggs to hatch and another 5 to 7 days of protection from the male until they become independent (Parr, 2002)."

It doesn't make sense to say on one hand that GSF don't reproduce enough (to be good forage), and then say that they tend to overpopulate (leading to stunting). Seems that GSF reproduce just as much as other lepomis, but are preferred and preyed upon more by larger predators because of their shape.

The common wisdom about Green Sunfish isn't adding up.

I have almost no knowledge here, but some questions. GW, you're asking what I've been thinking as I've followed this thread. If GSF over populate and stunt, then why can't they provide enough forage? I understand the concept of their competition with small bass, but could that not be used as a management tool for LMB as well?

This maybe some of the answer GW:

If the GSF only spawns once per year while BG spawn 2 or more times per year this would of course make the BG a better forage choice for LMB.

I'm no fish expert and you raise some interesting questions. I look forward to seeing where the discussion goes.

As I said earlier, my pond only had LMB and GSF in it when I purchased the property and the relative weight in my bass was significantly low. At the beginning of March I added lots (over 3,000) fingerling BG and the relative weight of my LMB had improved significantly by the end of April.

That's not particularly scientific but there it is.

Originally posted by jeffhasapond:

I was thinking of perhaps

"Reckless Enthusiasts of Cyanellus Trying to Utilize Murderous Sunfish"

and will allow usage of this conditionally upon my acceptance as the seventh member of the club.

Thanks jeffhasapond, more peices to the puzzle.

I'm curious about the idea that GSF only spawn once a year. Is the same true of any other Sunfish? Your experience must have some significance, but I'd like to know more. For example, are there possibly some unusual circumstances that can cause GSF to spawn multiple times in a season? I think it's established that many fish will adjust their spawning behavior to environmental influences. Maybe if they were the apex predator in a pond they would spawn more often.

At this time my focus is on a Greenie pond without larger predators.

Shorty, I'm really hoping that you can gather some data from your neighbor with the GSF pond. It would be great if he used the internet and would join the forum and discuss his pond.

...........

no

He wasn't home Sunday afternoon when I knocked his door but I will keep trying.

Thanks Shorty.

Hey, aren't you at least an honorary member?