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#172499 07/08/09 04:05 PM
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Ok, So I live on a private 350 acre lake in Connecticut. (Beautiful I might add) It is a public watershed with a state maintained dam. River fed from other lake which is fed from a "pond". In the lake we currently have LMB, SMB, Pickerel, Yellow Perch, Rock bass, Crappie, Bluegill, Stocked Trout, Stocked Walleye, Stocked Tiger Muskie (8 years ago with hopes of doing it again. The upper lake stocked the Walleye first and they all ended up in our lake so we stocked too and plan on another this fall. We are almost positive that the Walleye are reproducing on their own (a little) which is great. Here is the Problem. We have a fish comittee and they make all the decisions. They are thinking of stocking a bait fish of some sort because of the damage to the perch pop since they stocked the Tigers. My question is what kind to we stock and how many? There is alot of talk and someone wants to put Alewives in. Pros and cons? If not alewives then what do we put it. The lake is 30 feet in its deepest spot but most of the middle is 20-25. There are a ton of stumps underwater. We also have Milfoil which we spend alot of money trying to get rid of it. I cant think of anything else to tell you about the lake so please your advice is great. Thanks again.

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I think it would be wise for you folks to contact our master MR Lusk directly.



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Beach79,

Where are you in CT. In the 2 or 3 years I've been lurking around on here I think you're the first person I've ever seen post from CT. Columbia Lake?

-ferrigns

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A quick scan of Ct. wildlife documents state Alewives as an invasive species in landlocked waters.

On a side note, I would be happy to offer a bid to stock Blue tilapia next spring as both a forage species and a natural Milfoil control.

Last edited by Rainman; 07/08/09 05:19 PM.


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Welcome to the forum beach79...

Alwives are an option to stock. However, they may have severe winter kill at times in a lake that is only 35 deep that far north. That may not be a bad thing though as alewife can really take over. However, I would highly recommend you NOT stock alewives. They are HIGHLY predacious on zooplankton and especially of fish eggs and YOY fish young like walleye, YP, bass and others. Read about their introduction into Tennessee reservoirs and the mess they made of the walleye population at this LINK. They make great forage, however they compete very strongly with sunfish and cause their growth rates to drop greatly leading to bluegills and other panfish to not reach desirable sizes. They also compete with YOY and fingerling game fish for resources as well, causing the growth rates of game fish to be slow until those fish reach a size where they themselves can feed on the alewife. Also, blueback herring have in recent years been stocked in many lakes and are very similar to alewife with similar results on the fish community. So keep that in mind as well...

Gizzard shad maybe a better option, but again they will compete with your panfish and cause their growth rates to be lowered. If your fishing committee is not interested in quality panfish and more interested in faster growth rates for your predatory fish, they may be an option.

Golden shiners(GSH) maybe the best option. However LARGE and I mean LARGE numbers would have to be stocked to have a reasonable expectation that they would take hold... You may also want to look at a couple other Cyprinid species to stock if you can source them. In a lake your size, emerald shiners should do well as their should be ample open water areas for them to live which is their preferred habitat. Also, if you have extended area of sandy shores, you may want to consider spottail shiners. They are also a larger lake fish species. Both the emerald shiner and spottail shiner have been introduced by many state fish agencies as an additional forage species into larger lakes. They both reach 4" or so as a maximum size and would certainly help supplement your food chain without overly affecting your panfish population. The toughest challenge is finding a commercial source for either species.

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Welcome to PB you CT guys. I suggest you contact Bob. Also contact Doc. Mark Cornwell at CORNWEMD@Cobleskill.edu as I think he can tell you about alewives in NE lakes and the problems. They are a member of the herring family and are high in nutrient value (high in fish oil and lipids). This should help

Adverse Effects of Alewives on Laurentian Great Lakes Fish Communities

Charles P. Madenjian*
U.S. Geological Survey, Great Lakes Science Center, 1451 Green Road, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48105, USA

Robert O'Gorman
U.S. Geological Survey, Great Lakes Science Center, Lake Ontario Biological Station, 17 Lake Street, Oswego, New York 13126, USA

David B. Bunnell, Ray L. Argyle, Edward F. Roseman, and David M. Warner
U.S. Geological Survey, Great Lakes Science Center, 1451 Green Road, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48105, USA

Jason D. Stockwell
U.S. Geological Survey, Great Lakes Science Center, Lake Superior Biological Station, 2800 Lakeshore Drive East, Ashland, Wisconsin 54806, USA

Martin A. Stapanian
U.S. Geological Survey, Great Lakes Science Center, Lake Erie Biological Station, 6100 Columbus Avenue, Sandusky, Ohio 44870, USA

Abstract

The alewife Alosa pseudoharengus, an invader to the Laurentian Great Lakes from the Atlantic Ocean, has been blamed for causing major disruptions of Great Lakes fish communities during the past 50 years. We reviewed the literature and examined long-term data on fish abundances in the Great Lakes to develop a new synthesis on the negative effects of alewives on Great Lakes fish communities. The results indicated that certain fish populations are substantially more vulnerable to the effects of alewives than others. More specifically, the effects of alewives on other fish populations appeared to follow a continuum—from such fishes as slimy sculpin Cottus cognatus, lake whitefish Coregonus clupeaformis, and bloater Coregonus hoyi, which were relatively unsusceptible—to Atlantic salmon Salmo salar, lake trout Salvelinus namaycush, and emerald shiner Notropis atherinoides, which were highly susceptible. Intermediate species in this continuum included yellow perch Perca flavescens, deepwater sculpin Myoxocephalus thompsonii, and burbot Lota lota. The predominant mechanism by which alewives exerted their negative effect appeared to be predation on the larvae of other fishes. The key factor in the extirpation of Atlantic salmon from Lake Ontario, however, was probably early mortality syndrome induced by a diet rich in alewives. We conclude that the degree of restoration of the native Great Lakes fish community depends in part on the degree of control of the alewife population.
















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Remember, alewife are naturally a sea run fish. They are much like striped bass or American shad(who are closely related to them). They live most of their lives out at sea where they feed on small shrimp, fish larvae(of saltwater species which over many centuries of evolution have evolved to this predation) and once they mature, they make spring spawning runs into freshwater rivers where they spawn. The YOY stay in the estuary of the river and then migrate out to the ocean the next year to start the cycle all over again... In a lake environment, fish found in these lakes have not evolved to this type of predation and alewife are not completely evolved to lake life. Often having mass winter die offs not found in sea run populations. I have fished lakes with alewife which have great fishing for game fish. Raystown Lake in Pennsylvania rings a bell. It is loaded with alewife but has a healthy population of walleye, lake trout, stripers, SMB, LMB and others... However, other than the LMB and SMB, the others are almost entirely maintained by annual stockings of advanced fingerlings.

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After seeing what Gizzard Shad can do to a 365 acre lake that only has LMB as a top predator, I wouldn't stock them. Now with a healthy population of Muskies, that's a different story. How many do you estimate are in the lake?


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If they stocked Tiger Muskies 8 years ago, I would think that probably less than half are still alive, and those that are left wont live much longer. If you desire tiger muskies, than stock one per acre every other year or every year is much better than loading up on them at one time. You can implement them into your population by having different size classes focussing on different size prey.

Next, why not supplement the YP population instead of wasting money on introducing a new forage species. 1500 lbs of adult YP stocked this fall would boost the perch population right back up and give you immediate fishing results as well as a great spawn in the spring. I dont know your budget, but if your a 350 acre lake treating milfoil and looking to stock forage, your spending a pretty good chunk of change. You could even plan on stocking the larger sized perch every fall or every other fall if your budget allows. With committees its best to come up with a long term 3-5 year plans, because some times those committee members can change often and different members have different agendas and those lakes just get all screwed up.


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Not that everyone has not had alot of useful information but i like what N8ly has said. Why not more perch? The alewives are not going to work, i did my own research on them last night and it is just not a good idea. I also like what Rainman had to say. Perhaps the Blue Tilapia what would be a good idea for both forage as well as Milfoil Control. Woodridge Lake, Goshen CT for who ever asked what Lake it is and yes, the association throws alot of money at the fish stocking and Milfoil Control. Tens of thousands infact, and the even dropped the lake 12 feet this winter with the effort of killing off the milfoil(didn't work).

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How much would 1500 LBS of yellow perch cost?
same for Blue Tilapia.

And how do i contact MR LUSK????????????

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Would the Blue Tilapia survive a Connecticut winter?

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Doubtful. You get ice, no?


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beach79,welcome to the forum.And please excuse everyone else for forgetting to welcome you too.I guess thier excited about the size of your POND.You have found the right place to get your answers.
You can get hold of Bob Lusk either by sending him a PM or contacting PondBoss headquaters.


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Beach,

No. NO tilapia will survive there, BUT, the cost of tilapia would be far less than what you spend on chemicals to control the plants. It is a yearly stocking program that will increase the overall fish population and health of the lake in many ways---all naturally.

Blue tilapia die at 45 degrees where all other species/hybrids/crosses will die at 55-65 degrees. This would provide for at least a couple extra months of benefit.

The prices for large quantities of fish are greatly reduced and I doubt anyone would offer a price without more information. What did the association spend on chemical plant control last year AND was it useful for the entire lake or only for small areas?



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Adult Perch typically cost $3-$9 per lb depending on how far they are coming from, how many fingers have dipped into the pot, and general supply/demand curves.

If Blue Tilapia are legal in Connecticut, that would be a great idea for a forage fish, because they will reproduce like rabbits, and all of them will get eaten as the water temps start to drop, they slow down big time, and predators metabolisms are still going strong!

They may provide good milfoil control if you can feasibly stock them in time and at a high enough number, or they may like to eat the other forms of vegetation in the lake much better and not help with milfoil at all.


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Keep in mind the restrictions (VHS) on moving fish from state to state. That many adult YP might be hard to find so start early looking. Cecil might grow some of his out for you - a thought.
















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After reading the Ct regs, ANY fish released in Ct must be approved. There is ZERO documents in thier archives as to tilapia. The permits are free and it would be worth a shot to apply.

I am now working with 3 growers in Ky that can grow and over-winter in excess of 200,000 pounds of fish exclusively for me. Currently, I am projecting 30,000 pounds of fish needed next spring for normal sales.

350 acres would need at least 30 pounds per acre the first year to be of use, 40/lb/acre would be ideal. Once the plant growth is under control, (1-2 yeares) the following years would require decreasing the pounds per acre, but using larger fish to provide mainly a forage---as little as 7.5 pounds per acre.

40 pounds per acre X 350 acres = 14,000 pounds of tilapia for only the first year. NORMAL pricing for that many pounds of fish would approach 300K, but I could produce and deliver them with a contract for far less than that.



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WOW! 300k in tilapia...

 Originally Posted By: TOM G
beach79,welcome to the forum.And please excuse everyone else for forgetting to welcome you too.I guess thier excited about the size of your POND.You have found the right place to get your answers.


I didn't forget Tom... This was in my first post.
 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
Welcome to the forum beach79...


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CJ, that would be in "10-20 pound order" NORMAL pricing.

For 350 acres of water---NOTHING is cheap, except for what will destroy it! read nothing!

Last edited by Rainman; 07/09/09 03:32 PM.


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Thats a lot of fish and a lot of money. That being said, we only have about 20 acres of milfoil the rest of the lake is clean. Do we still need that many fish? P.S. this site is awesome...

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Thought I might add, (you guys must fish) a guy caught a tiger muskie this past weekend that was just short of 50 inches and weighed 35.5lbs. The weight was official and it was after it had thrown up its lunch and dried out for a day. Probably closer to 40lbs.

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I hope you read the terms and conditions of posting on here.We get to come fish for the advice.In groups.With beverage.And we expect food too. \:o \:D


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.....overnight accommodations being in Connecticut! This site is pretty awesome, I agree.

If you only have 20 acres of milfoil on 350 acres of water, your doing pretty good! I would definitely start looking for or contracting someone to raise big perch for ya immediately if you want to do something yet this year. Most likely though being a committee thing you will be working on Next years budget/plan but you still want to get rolling ASAP.


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You could go with a lot less tilapia with only 20 acres of milfoil. Start now looking for adult/advanced YP as they will not be easy to find in #s. Call Cecil he may be able to help some. jjbaird@ligtel.com
Homepage: http://www.ligtel.com/~jjbaird/pprf/pprf.htm


Last edited by ewest; 07/09/09 08:27 PM.















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