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#17239 - 06/10/07 12:49 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
Theo Gallus Offline
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No more likely to crossbreed than any other two Lepomis species, i.e. it doesn't happen very often. GSFxRES crosses should grown bigger than pure Greenies do.
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#17240 - 06/10/07 01:05 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
jeffhasapond Offline
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Theo, Theo, Theo, sometimes you have such a cruel, dry sense of humor. \:D
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#17241 - 06/11/07 08:06 AM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
GW Offline
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Adding RES to the GSF pond is appealing becuase for one thing it's a bigger fish. The snail control is nice too.

Would it take much effort to control RES numbers in a Greenie pond? They seem a little more difficult to cull by fishing than GSF.

How would they do in a pond that only averaged 4 feet deep and was very warm? I'm referring to Mr. H's pond which may vary from 10 ft to 5ft at full pool depending on the weather pattern.
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#17242 - 06/11/07 09:17 AM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
Theo Gallus Offline
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RES are the only sunfish NOT reported to overpopulate. I don't think they'll overrun the GSF.
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#17243 - 06/11/07 11:21 AM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
jeffhasapond Offline
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I would think that you would be fine with a RES and GSF mix. Heck I mixed RES, GSF and BG. Of course time will tell if I created toxic sunfish soup. \:D

When I added the additional sunfish (RES and BG) I expressed concerns about cross hybridization and was told the same thing that Theo just told you. Some hybridization could occur but it shouldn't really be an issue. On the other had Shorty mentioned a pond or lake in which quite a bit of hybridization occurred so I don't know.

I added RES for the same reason you are considering it - snail patrol.

Also keep in mind that when the pond is at it's lowest level during the heat of the summer it would be very easy to seine it to remove fish if fishing wasn't controlling the population enough.

Theo made a great point several pages back about GSF being more like bass in behavior than like BG. GSF are highly aggressive and (for a sunfish) have huge mouths. It seems to me that if you are trying to raise "trophy" quality GSF, which IMHO would have to be over 1.5 lbs, you will have to manage specifically for that (much like Bruce does with his BG). Providing enough food (forage or sunfish chow) and proper culling will be a issue that you will have to work out.

This does sound like a great project.

Given how much my meager GSF fight I would imagine that a GSF that weighed over 1.5 lbs (on light tackle) would be a blast to catch.

If you proceed with this it will be very interesting to compare your results with DIED in a year or two. He has GSF at 1.25 lbs already. Like myself he added BG and RES and has gams by the thousands and is feeding in addition. In his pond GSF are the dominant predator. I am not sure if he is still thinking of adding bass or not. I would not be surprised at all if DIED were to catch a 1.5 pound GSF in the not too distant future.

My pond is a completely different situation since I have LMB and am focusing on getting their relative weight up and overall size up. Based upon what my neighbors have said my pond use to have LMB that were in the 4 to 5 pound range in it. But no one was monitoring what was being removed and I guess the big bass were taken out. All that has nothing to do with GSF, I guess the point that I was trying to make was that I will not be in the running for producing trophy GSF.

[Ya know I edited this post eight times to remove stupidity and it could probably use a ninth or tenth stupidity removal process. I just can't stop editing. Put the mouse down and back away from the keyboard. "Word" can spell check and check for grammar, is there a program to scan a post for stupidity? - - Norton Anti Stupid Version 5.1 or something? Of course maybe I'm better off if such a program is not available. If the moderators used such a program to scan this forum probably 80% of my posts would be removed. Oh well, time for more coffee.]
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#17244 - 06/11/07 01:40 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
ewest Offline
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What does the science show about lepomis crosses. There is quite a bit out there and some of it is surprising. That said lets start with the seminal paper by Childers. I picked out a few points to ponder. Note the difference in the % male offspring in reciprocal Rm X Gf (70%)and Gm X Rf (50%). That last # means the primary reason (other than catchability) being low reproduction is missing from half (low viability half - G X R) of the R X G pairing and still much higher than HBG ( 90%+) in the other pairing . Lots of babies means high potential stunting. Where was this thread going ? \:\)

HYBRIDIZATION OF FISHES IN NORTH AMERICA
(FAMILY CENTRARCHIDAE)
by

W.F. CHILDERS
Illinois Natural History Survey
Urbana, Illinois
U.S.A.

In this paper R refers to red-ear sunfish, B to bluegill, G to green sunfish, and W to warmouth.

4.1 Sex Ratios of F1 hybrids
Sexually mature F1 hybrids were collected from each population and sexed. Of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids, seven were predominately males (RB, BR, and BG were 97 percent males; WG were 84 percent males; and RG, GB, and BW were approximately 70 percent males), two were approximately 50 percent males (GR and RW), and one was predominately female (GW was 16 percent males). Ricker (1948) determined the sex of 428 BR F1 hybrids in Indiana and found them to be 97.7 percent males.


The R G, G B, and W G pairing successfully hybridized each time they were tested.

4.2 Reproductive success of hybrids
The reproductive success of each of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids was investigated in one or more ponds. The occurrence and abundance of F2 hybrids were determined by seining, trapping, shocking, poisoning or draining the ponds after the F1 hybrids were one or more years of age. RB, BR, and BG failed to produce abundant F2 generations when in ponds which contained no other species of fishes. In contrast to these results, BR F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 generations in two ponds in Indiana (Ricker 1948). The other seven kinds of F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Three of the seven kinds of F1 hybrids which produced large F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes were also stocked in ponds with largemouth bass. RG F1 hybrids and GB F1 hybrids, when stocked with largemouth bass, produced only a few F2 hybrids. No F2 hybrids were found in the pond stocked with BW F1 hybrids and largemouth bass. WG F2 hybrids and GW F2 hybrids were stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Both of these F2 hybrids produced large F3 populations.


4.4 Rate of growth
In an attempt to determine whether certain F1 hybrid sunfishes actually grow faster than their parent species, two experiments were conducted in which equal numbers of uniformly sized F1 hybrids and parent species were stocked in ponds which contained no other fishes. Intraspecific competition is keener than interspecific competition because individuals of the same species are more nearly equal in their structural, functional, and behavioural adaptations. Consequently in experiments designed to compare rates of growth, it is imperative to use equal numbers of similarly sized fishes. In the first experiment the growth rate of BG F1 hybrids was compared to that of green sunfish. In the second experiment the growth rates of GR F1 hybrids, green sunfish, and red-ear sunfish were compared.

In both experiments the average increase in total length of the hybrids was not significantly different from the increases of the parental species. The population densities of the fishes in both ponds were much lower than would be found in most normal natural populations. In both experiments intraspecific and interspecific competition was undoubtedly quite light; consequently, the question of whether certain F1 hybrid sunfishes are superior to their parent species in rate of growth cannot be answered until high density populations containing equal numbers of equal sized hybrids and parent species are studied.
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#17245 - 06/11/07 02:27 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
GW Offline
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Thanks ewest, that's interesting.

 Quote:
Originally posted by ewest:
Where was this thread going ? \:\)

Trophy

Green

Sunfish.

:p
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#17246 - 06/11/07 08:57 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
dave in el dorado ca Offline
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originally posted by JHAP: "..............It seems to me that if you are trying to raise "trophy" quality GSF, which IMHO would have to be over 1.5 lbs, ............"

i dunno jeff......i'd like to think we both have trophy fish right now. based on my experiences and what i've seen here at PB, anything over 9-inches and approaching a pound is trophy quality.

IIRC, rmedgar once said "hold on there pilgrims" when jeff was originally vying for largest private pond GSF in north america (per cecil's website).....rmedgar...any pics? no other PMs except maybe bill cody have posted GSF from their ponds.....i'd love to see them as i'm sure DD1, g-dub, and jeff would as well. give it up guys......show off yer GSF! it would be nice to have a thread showing GSF diversity across the country (even if they are only 6 inches long \:D )

jeff, here's one you'll like, on the cross-breeding sub topic here, sunday, lake pardee, drop shot rig, worm chunk, deep weedbed at 35 foot, caught a ~9 to 9.5-inch RES (i think a female \:\) ) who now has a bunch of new friends at my place. she'll add some genetic diversity.
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#17247 - 06/11/07 09:02 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
Bruce Condello Offline
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I'll just kick in my deservedly humble opinion.

I think a green sunfish is trophy sized at 3/4 pound. I'm not exagerating when I say that I've caught thousands, maybe ten thousand or more greenies and have never caught a single, legitimate 3/4 pounder.
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#17248 - 06/11/07 11:09 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
ewest Offline
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I think those pics Bill posted are fairly common as an indicator of GSF as is the one Bruce posted in the archives.



The small one is common size and the big one would be trophy size based on studies I have seen.
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#17249 - 06/12/07 12:25 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
jeffhasapond Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by dave in el dorado ca:
.... give it up guys......show off yer GSF! it would be nice to have a thread showing GSF diversity across the country (even if they are only 6 inches long \:D )

jeff, here's one you'll like, on the cross-breeding sub topic here, sunday, lake pardee, drop shot rig, worm chunk, deep weedbed at 35 foot, caught a ~9 to 9.5-inch RES (i think a female \:\) ) who now has a bunch of new friends at my place. she'll add some genetic diversity.
Yep I most certainly would like to see photos of GSF. Come on folks Post 'em if ya got 'em.


Any idea what the RES weighed Dave? That is gonna be a great addition and I agree couldn't hurt with the genetic diversity.

If ya ever catch LMB over a pound I'd like to toss them in my pond. Same reason, change up the gene pool. My neighbor mentioned to me that a few years back he personally had caught a 4.5 pound LMB out of my pond. I guess that people kept pulling out all of the larger bass. So if ya ever catch one keep it alive in your bathtub till I get there, I'm sure your wife won't mind, it's for a good cause after all. \:D
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"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)

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#17250 - 06/12/07 12:28 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
jeffhasapond Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Condello:
I'll just kick in my deservedly humble opinion.

I think a green sunfish is trophy sized at 3/4 pound. I'm not exagerating when I say that I've caught thousands, maybe ten thousand or more greenies and have never caught a single, legitimate 3/4 pounder.
Well that makes me feel better. I guess even my GSF are something to be proud of.
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JHAP
~~~~~~~~~~

"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)

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#17251 - 06/12/07 01:04 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
Bruce Condello Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by jeffhasapond:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Condello:
I'll just kick in my deservedly humble opinion.

I think a green sunfish is trophy sized at 3/4 pound. I'm not exagerating when I say that I've caught thousands, maybe ten thousand or more greenies and have never caught a single, legitimate 3/4 pounder.
Well that makes me feel better. I guess even my GSF are something to be proud of.
Heck yes, they are!! ;\)
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#17252 - 06/12/07 01:08 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
GW Offline
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Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 2287
Loc: Central florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by jeffhasapond:
I guess even my GSF are something to be proud of.
EVEN my GSF?! You're on probation mister! :p
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#17253 - 06/12/07 02:06 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
dave in el dorado ca Offline
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jeff, she boga'd between 0.5 and 1.0....she was gyratin around so much it was hard to get an exact reading and i wanted to get her back into water ASAP. she had really nice body condition so i'm guessing around 3/4 lb. she'll probably never forgive me for lip gripping her with cold stainless steel

i'm really serious about wanting to see GSF from around the country, babies, average size, stunted, doesnt matter, i think we need to see them....if nobody responds with some pics, i may be forced to post pictures of my pigs on every post i make in the future.



\:D
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#17254 - 06/12/07 03:05 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
GW Offline
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Registered: 04/08/07
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Here's a Green that I caught in Mr H's big pond the other day. At the time I was waiting to find out if he wanted me to try GSF in his little pond. Now that I have his permission I want to construct a netted area in his big pond to save these guys until the little pond is fit for fish.



Any opinions about the purity of these GSF genes?
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#17255 - 06/12/07 04:11 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
ewest Offline
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This from the HBG thread should help.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000439;p=5

GSF
Mouth and snout: Mouth Terminal, large and oblique, with pads of small teeth on the jaws. No barbels. Body patterning, color, and scales: Back dark brown, olive, or green, sides yellow-green or blue-green, belly tan or yellow. Sides either with a more-or-less solid color, faint dark blotches or mottling, irregular faint light blue or yellowish SPOTS, and/or diffuse dark vertical bars. Sometimes 3-5 bluish lines radiating backward from underneath the eye; opercular flap dark with a light margin. Dorsal, caudal, and to a lesser extent anal fins usually darkly pigmented with faint dark blotches or light dark spots and often a light yellow/cream margin; pelvic and pectoral fins lightly pigmented to dusky. 44-51 ctenoid lateral scales. Body shape and size: Body laterally compressed and deep, somewhat elongated; oval in cross section. Typically 75-150 mm (3-6 in) TL; maximum in Wisconsin about 250 mm (10 in).

Tail, dorsal and other fins: Slightly Forked or round tail. Dorsal fin with 2 lobes, broadly joined by a membrane and appearing as one fin, the first with 9-11 spines and the second with 10-12 rays. Pelvic fins thoracic. Adipose fin absent. Anal fin with 3 spines and 9-10 rays.

GSF There are 9-12 short and thick primary gill rakers on the 1st arch.

BG
BG There are 13-16 moderately long primary gill rakers on the 1st arch.


HBG
Hybrid of green sunfish X bluegill: Notice intermediate appearance of gill rakers

These should help

GSF



GSF gill rakers



HBG


HBG (Bg x GSF) gill rakers



Pic of GSF from Bill Cody.
Note from Cody: I am not real positive that these small fish are pure green sunfish since they came from a pond that experienced 16 or more generations(yrs) of reproduction from HBG. These fish look very much like GSF to me.



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#17256 - 06/12/07 04:14 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
dave in el dorado ca Offline
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boy that sure is a pretty fish g-dub. beautiful red eyes and mottling on body. thoughts on GSF genetics?

it appears to be missing a couple key items for pure GSF including black spots on rear of dorsal fin and on anal fin, none of the fins exhibit creamy colored (yellow/white) fin edges, the pectoral fin appears more pointed (GSF being somewhat rounded), but it does have a big mouth and the right body shape (more elongate than most other lepomis). i would say other genetics are involved perhaps RES, or other eastern variety, but GSF genes dominate.
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#17257 - 06/12/07 04:40 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
GW Offline
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Thanks ewest.

Dave, I compared my fish to the GSF description that ewest posted and there is no conflicting indicators. The description gives a lot of room for variation of colors, and when I count spines and rays it matches.

I'm sure that there could be other sunfish gene's in this fish, what I wonder is if it matters for my purposes. It's not likely that it has genes for any smaller fish, and it's got the right shape. Can anyone explain to me if it really matters in this experiment that I confirm pure GSF genes?
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#17258 - 06/12/07 06:02 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
ewest Offline
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GW I would not worry past what you are already doing. A number of Fisheries Scientists who have done studies on GSF X BG (HBG)and other lepomis have related that they think the pool (availability) of pure GSF is shrinking due to the results they see in the studies. I would do what you are (looking and comparing) and check the gill rakers. That should be close enough.
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#17259 - 06/12/07 07:12 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
dave in el dorado ca Offline
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i'm with ewest.....in the first place one of the reasons i stocked the sunnies from the ranchpond is that they live here. there's no absolute mine are pure GSF, but they have all the attributes and then some (large growth \:D ).

they used to be in my pond years ago before renovation and before it dried up the first time in ~1998. to everybody's knowledge in the neighborhood, they were never "stocked" in my pond, they just showed up (for those bird theory lovers \:D we do have intense heron, egret, kingfisher, and killdeer traffic between the two ponds).

they are as close to "native" fish as i could get. they can withstand the worst conditions i have to offer, and some of those conditions are pretty harsh towards the end of summer. i figured what better gene pool to use than what is successful in my environment....give them more food than they can eat and see what happens.

most importantly have a blast......and good luck.
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#17260 - 06/14/07 04:16 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
GW Offline
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Could these be the same species or at least share the majority of genes?
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#17261 - 06/14/07 05:18 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
dave in el dorado ca Offline
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wow, now THAT's a green sunny. notice how round the pectoral fin is compared to the first fish. olive yellow underbelly, hint of spot at rear of dorsal fin, slight whitish rim on lower fin edges. the fish look related, the lower fish though much closer to pure GSF.....IMHO......

for comparison

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#17262 - 06/14/07 05:33 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
bobad Offline
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GW,

The top picture looks like a warmouth. The red eyes are a good indicator.
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#17263 - 06/14/07 05:51 PM Re: Green Sunfish/Warmouth pond
dave in el dorado ca Offline
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hey bobad, didnt think of that, i also dont recall ever seeing one when i lived back east....but according to my little field guide (Peterson Guide w/ big GSF on cover \:D ) the warmouth has brown lines radiating from behind red eyes (not as prevalent in young fish), and i think you can kind of see that in the first fish.

also, g-dub, it says for warmouth to check for patch of teeth on tongue (detect by feeling with finger).
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