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#171770 - 07/06/09 08:15 AM CC or Bullhead?
Mark Brown Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 331
Loc: Warrenton, VA
Finally started catching some catfish. Turns out they were up in the shallow end where all the little BG and new feeder is. Was trying to catch some BG to measure and caught these.

Question-don't these look more like bullheads than CC? Could their golden brown color be influenced by the pond color? I only stocked CC in a new pond in Sept '07 and there is no source of water other than springs. I caught 2 CC last year and they were classic silver and white colored.

On another note I kept a 16" 2lb LMB to eat as he swallowed a baited hook i was BG fishing with. I haven't eaten a bass in 20 years probably. Broke my heart to keep it but it would have died. First LMB removed other than the 30, 10-11" I culled. Man was it good!
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#171772 - 07/06/09 08:22 AM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Mark Brown]
Mark Brown Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
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Loc: Warrenton, VA
Better picture. Haven't figured out how to get more than 1 pic in a thread.
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#171775 - 07/06/09 08:35 AM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Mark Brown]
davatsa Offline
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Registered: 04/14/03
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Loc: San Antonio, TX
That sure looks like a bullhead to me. CCs have a forked tail; bullheads have a straight tail.

The bullheads are good eating, but they're prolific spawners and usually will not get more than 2-3 pounds.
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#171777 - 07/06/09 08:43 AM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: davatsa]
Mark Brown Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 331
Loc: Warrenton, VA
They sure look like. Don't know how they got there. Should I try to remove them or forget about it?
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#171782 - 07/06/09 09:43 AM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Mark Brown]
Greg Grimes Offline
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Mark you got your self a yellow bullhead. They showup in many ponds where not stocked??? Good sign that it is fairly big for a bullhead so this might mean low density of them;lets hope so.
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#171786 - 07/06/09 09:54 AM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Greg Grimes]
Mark Brown Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 331
Loc: Warrenton, VA
I caught 6 bullheads in an hour using nightcrawlers for BG. Can't catch any of the 200 CC I stocked. This is disturbing. Don't bullheads compete with LMB by eating the BG? I caught the BH where the BG hang out in the shallows and where the new feeder is.
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#171792 - 07/06/09 10:15 AM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Mark Brown]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/06
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They probably came in with the channel cats. The CC ought to start showing up at the feeder.

As for competing, everything in the pond eats everything that is smaller.
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#171795 - 07/06/09 10:27 AM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Dave Davidson1]
Mark Brown Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 331
Loc: Warrenton, VA
Sounds like I have a new mission-cull the bullheads. Just when I thought everything was going so well.

I did see a ball of little black catfish minnows last year. I was surprised in that I read that CC can't reproduce in small bodies of water. Guess it was the bullheads. A VA state biologist even wrote that reproduction of CC in impoundments under 250 acres was very marginal. I found that surprising.
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#171802 - 07/06/09 11:23 AM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Mark Brown]
Greg Grimes Offline
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I agree I wish you woudl have scopped up the cat fryt hey were bullheads 99% certain. THey actually compete with bluegill for fodo as well. Try a trap.
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#171820 - 07/06/09 01:01 PM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Greg Grimes]
Mark Brown Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 331
Loc: Warrenton, VA
So bullheads will reproduce in a small pond but CC can't? Figures, huh?

What kind of trap do you suggest and where might I get one?
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#171824 - 07/06/09 01:15 PM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Mark Brown]
Sunil Offline
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That cloud of black fish was almost certainly bullheads and they do spawn in ponds.

I remove everyone one that I catch.

I took out (3) yesterday and they now reside up on the bank under a nice pine tree.

In fact, my sister in law happily pointed out that she saw a little baby catfish. It was sunning itself on a rock in 3" of water. I moved towards it, and it shot off the rock.....right into the mouth of a 10" LMB. So sad.......NOT!
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#171828 - 07/06/09 01:24 PM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Sunil]
Mark Brown Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 331
Loc: Warrenton, VA
Sunil,

That's funny. I hope to use some bullheads as fertilizer as well. Still can't believe they are there and the CC won't bite. I just hope the hatchery didn't give me mostly BH when I stocked the pond when it was new in Sept 07.
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#171830 - 07/06/09 01:52 PM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Mark Brown]
Sunil Offline
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I have put something like 55-60 CC in my pond over the past five years or so and have never caught nor seen a single one.

I doubt the bullheads came in with a stocking, but you never know.

One thing you could try, just for knowledge, is to call the same hatchery and tell them you want to buy some bullheads and see what they say.
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Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
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#171836 - 07/06/09 02:20 PM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Sunil]
Theo Gallus Offline
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Registered: 05/14/04
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Loc: Central Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Sunil
One thing you could try, just for knowledge, is to call the same hatchery and tell them you want to buy some bullheads and see what they say.

That's the Wharton School of Business talking.
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#171840 - 07/06/09 02:42 PM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Theo Gallus]
Mark Brown Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 331
Loc: Warrenton, VA
The hatchery sells bullheads. They are in their list. This was a new pond damned between 2 hills with no real source of water, Just a spring and a wet weather stream and 40 acres of watershed to fill it. Had to be the hatchery.
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#171850 - 07/06/09 03:50 PM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Mark Brown]
Greg Grimes Offline
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Registered: 05/03/02
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Are you serious if they are the culprit then no way woudl I ever use them again. Search fish traps all kinds of options out there for you.
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#171877 - 07/06/09 05:54 PM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Greg Grimes]
CJBS2003 Offline
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Mark, brown bullhead and yellow bullhead are both native to our part of Virginia. I have found brown bullhead to be far more common though. The bullhead in the picture is a brown bullhead. The easiest way to tell brown bullheads from yellow bullheads is the color of the 4 lower jaw whiskers. In brown bullheads, they will always have some pigmentation. Notice yours is a tannish brown color. Yellow bullheads always have a pure white colored lower jaw whiskers. Yellow and brown bullheads also have distinctly different shapes to their heads. Also, once yellow bullheads reach the size of the one in the pic, they almost always have a yellow belly, whereas brown bullheads rarely develop a yellow belly. Brown bullheads also get a mottled color like your fish, whereas yellow bullheads tend to be a solid gradual change in color from dark brown on the dorsal side to a yellowish white on the bottom.

If you want to get a fairly cheap trap that works very well on bullheads up to about 8" take a look at this trap...

Minnow trap

Go with the large size. It will hold many 4"-8" bullheads. It has a large opening to allow bigger fish in than your normal minnow trap as well. It comes with a built in mesh bait holder. Bait it with beef liver, or just some fish feed. Leave it out overnight and you'll have plenty of bullheads...

I am betting your got your CC from Zett's... They sell brown bullheads as well. Sounds like they mixed some brown bullheads in with your CC. Ooops!
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#171880 - 07/06/09 05:59 PM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: CJBS2003]
Greg Grimes Offline
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awwwright CJ second time you have corrected me on fish id. GUess I need to start reading more instead of posting so quick,. Can you tell im in the office today? Several post today but putting in probably 18 hrs in the field tommorow so no way for you to correct me, \:\)
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#171891 - 07/06/09 06:19 PM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Greg Grimes]
CJBS2003 Offline
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In the end Greg, does it really matter whether it is a brown or yellow bullhead? They are both a pain in the! Unless you want bullheads in your pond and yes I know some guys who do... Personally I think they taste better than CC, but you have to work hard to manage them to get them to a size large enough to enjoy. Basically heavy trapping and lots of feeding and I have seen yellow and brown bullheads average a foot and grow over 18". Very nice eating size. They didn't seem to affect other fish growth either...
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#171902 - 07/06/09 07:09 PM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: CJBS2003]
Sunil Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
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Loc: Somerset, PA
Greg, we still love you.
_________________________
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."


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#171935 - 07/06/09 09:54 PM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Sunil]
Mark Brown Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 331
Loc: Warrenton, VA
I ate the 2 I kept Sunday and did not like it. They have dark meat and it was no where near as good as CC IMHO. Growing up fishing the Shenandoah we alwys killed "mudcats" when we caught them. I dont care anthing for them and I sure as *** did not want them in the pond I always dreamed of having. This is a huge disappointment as I wanted a gamefish pond with some CC for eating.

I can't prove it and I am sure they will deny it but I am calling Zett's out on this one. Only problem is when I start raising *** I won't have a local place to buy replacement stock or FHM.

BTW, Zett's advised me to stock everything at the same time so "they can grow up together". I stated that VDGIF recommended stocking BG first and waiting a season or half season(forget which) to stock LMB so BG would have time to spawn and grow. I wanted so badly to get fishing I listened to Zett's instead of trusting VDGIF.

I suspected I was making an error then and the presence of mudcats bears that out to be true. I never realized how much work a good pond is. It was even built wrong-not lined and cored right so it leaks bad.

I wish I would have found this website BEFORE I started this project.
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#171957 - 07/06/09 10:48 PM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Mark Brown]
CJBS2003 Offline
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Registered: 01/19/09
Posts: 10457
Loc: northern VA
I figured it was Zett's. Zett's has some fish you can't find anywhere else, but some of their practices are strange. Like mixing black and white crappies together, and mixing BG and PS together. Zett's has a weird "new pond" stocking recommendation. Paying to stock water daphnia, snails and koi, is not conventional.

Since they are raising bullheads, I would strongly recommend you check your FHM stockings by hand before putting them in your pond. Small bullheads are often mixed in with them as well...

Having some bullheads in your pond is not the end of the world. You can manage around them. I have found that ponds with bigger CC in them tend to not have many bullheads and the ones that are left are larger. I think large CC prey heavily on small bullheads. Not nearly as much as flathead catfish do, but certainly a good bit.

Actually putting the bass in with the BG is not a bad idea IMO. In VA you don't want the BG getting too big a jump start on your bass or you end up with severely stunted BG and little to any bass recruitment.

I am not saying don't buy from Zett's. Just know what you are dealing with and be careful... HAND SORT ALL FISH!

Other places you can look for your stocking needs in our area:
http://www.midatlanticstocking.com/
http://agmap.psu.edu/Businesses/3075 (Sunil's fish guy and he has had great luck with him)
http://www.delmarvaaquatics.com/ (have heard good and bad things about this company)
http://fosterlake.com/new_site/index.php
http://www.buybass.com/
http://www.seponds.com/index.php

Granted, these hatcheries are not as close as Zett's, but if you share your displeasure with Zett's and they don't show you the customer service you feel you deserve, there are other options...
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#172020 - 07/07/09 07:36 AM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: CJBS2003]
Mark Brown Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 331
Loc: Warrenton, VA
Thanks CJ. I doubt very much Zett's will want to electroshock and remove these mhttp://piedpipertraps.com/traps/502.jpgudcats so as a backup I found this trap.
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#172021 - 07/07/09 07:38 AM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Mark Brown]
Mark Brown Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 331
Loc: Warrenton, VA
Couldn't get image to post> It is a fish trap from Pied Piper Traps.
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#172024 - 07/07/09 07:43 AM Re: CC or Bullhead? [Re: Mark Brown]
Mark Brown Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 331
Loc: Warrenton, VA
Just started to buy that trap and it weighs 94lbs! I bet I would have a hard time getting that thing up without a winch. Anyone ever use one of those #502 traps?
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