Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Largemouth, Georgia Giants, Coppernose

Hello to all. My name is Beau White. I am from a small town called Broussard, Louisiana. I have a small pond just over .25 acres. I am faced with the problem of not knowing what to stock with. I have done alot of reading and inquiries and still have mixed thoughts. Here we go! I started off thinking I could have a balanced pond with nice size bass, maybe 4-5lbs and good coppernose bream. Then a local hatchery tells me my pond is too small for good largemouth, I need Georgia Giants and bass to control the population. I called Ken's and they told me to stock 750 GG and 250 smallmouth. I don't like the thought of the GG reverting back to the green sunfish, if it is true. If possible I would like to have a largemouth, bream balance. How do you think it would work out if I stocked largemouth, GG males and coppernose bluegill. Should I just stick with trying to have what some call trophy bluegill and small to average bass

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=112031

Hi Beau, hang in here, a pro will help you out soon.
Not to be a wise guy, but it sounds like Ken's had a truck with GGs and SMBs parked around the corner at the local Choke & Puke.
I like your idea better (LMB, GG, CNBG).

Hi Beau,

I am new here too, but have been reading and lurking since February. I also am a lifelong fisherman and observer of nature. While I am not qualified to give advice, I will share what I have read and my interpreation with you. I also have a .25 acre pond (in Texas) which faces some of the same temperature challenges as you.

I was excited about GG as well when I heard and read about them, and it was this forum that somewhat discouraged me away. I found threads discussing the traits, and even some with good debate "from the other side" arguing the benefits of them. Unfortunately, when questions were asked about genetics or actual growth patterns the threads went dormant ... some of them are over two years old and still do not have answers from Debra/Ken. I have a hard time believing that the questions cannot be answered, but that the answers are more unfavorable to this crowd. I have nothing against them per say, but everything I have read about GSF crosses and hybrids are directly opposed to my goals of healthy sized BG.

Have you considered the approach of a CNGB, RES and adding LMB one year later combination? Using a reasonable stocking plan it seems to be very successful for many people... perhaps the proverbial tried and true.

Again, I am not an expert, but 1000 fish sounds high to me for a .25 acre pond, especially with 250 predators. I look forward to others replies as well.

Thanks guys, as for the CNBG, RES and adding LMB, this was my original plan and to try to have a balanced pond. I was told my pond was to small to do this. your pond is about the same size as mine, do you have a problem keeping quality bass.

Thanks Again

Beau, welcome aboard.

One thing on the recommendation you got...when they say "smallmouth" from that hatchery, they are talking about Hybrid Striped Bass (HSB).

For most of us on the forum here, and in the fisheries world, those are not interchangeable terms (Smallmouth vs. Hybrid Striped Bass).

Welcome Beau! Did your fish supplier recommend only GG and SMB? Or did he also recommend fathead, gambusia, or other forage fish?

WOW that is way to many predators. SMB in Louisana isnt that a little warm just wonderin.

OK guys here is some info. IMO until the questions mentioned above by cdixon are answered then you should consider GG as if they were HBG (I think they are a HBG variant). There is a place/use for HBG and it is explained well in the link below. The guy that wrote this article is one of the top PhD Fisheries Scientists in the country and has written studies on and experimented with HBG in deep south ponds.

http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p1893.htm

In short they are an option in small ponds for a good high catch rate of nice HBG and small LMB (great for kids). They create a put and take fishery in that the HBG will have to be replaced over time. BG/CNBG and GG do not mix well as they compete and could result in a genetic mix that you might not want. If you read the link and still have questions then repost.

Nope, didn't offer any minnows I had to ask just before we hung up and they said 1200 gambusia.

And SMB in Louisiana (250) those thoughts were in my mind also. ya'll are starting to clear things up a bit for me.

thanks for the link, good info. I'm square on the hybrids, but does anyone have a suggestion on what to stock for consistant production and in years to come. For instance my pond is 1/4acre should I put LMB,CNBG,FHM or LMB,GG,FHM.
I am looking for a long term hole fishing hole.

Great article from MSU Cares. My personal preference for a 1/4 acre pond is hybrid sunfish, whether GG or straight hybrids, and channel cats. The cats and larger hybrids can do a decent job on the later gens of the hybrids but you have to maintain both of the stocked species by fishing. Catch and eat the cats when they get bigger and restock cats. Use a feeder 4 or 5 days per week. They will still feed on the smaller HBG's.

If you stock bass, stock no more than 25 and keep all of the offspring that you catch. That's tough to do but is fun to try. Even feed trained bass follow their insticts and eat the HBG offspring.

I've never seen a smaller pond that is actually self maintaining.

Beau,

I have a lot of experience with small ponds at similar latitudes and also probably the only one here with direct experience with GG's.

Based on my experience, I offer you the following thoughts...

250 HSB in a 1/4 acre pond in the south is way too many. That is a stocking rate of 1000 per acre. The only person I have ever seen recommend such a rate is Todd Overton who has said on here that 1000 pounds of HSB per acre is easy to maintain in small south Texas ponds. My experience is completely contrary to that.

I stocked 200 GG's in a 1/4 acre pond along with 40 HSB about 18 months ago...see my web site for pictures and data collected during those 18 months.

If I had it to do over again, I would stock 250 GG's in the 1/4 acre and stock 25 F1 LMB concurrently. HSB failed to do an adequate job as the predator for me plus they quickly became hook shy. They have a relatively small mouth and prefer pellets which may have contributed to failure as the primary predator....but my objectives in that pond were/are probably different than yours.

With LMB as the predator, you will need to remove all the offspring you catch...or accept overpopulated LMB. I have a neighbor down the road from me that has pictures of a 6.5 pound LMB that he caught from one of my 1/4 acre ponds many years ago before I owned this property. That pond was never managed, stocked (?) only with native BG and LMB and it achieved its own balance. It was full of small LMB that were an absolute blast to catch and respectable BG.

You can have a long term fishing hole with little or no management required in a 1/4 acre pond if you stock regular BG and LMB...without management, you will probably get a pond like I had when I first bought my property over 30 years ago.... a pond full of eager to eat small LMB( could catch 30 or 40 on a fly rod in a fishing session), nice sized native BG, and one or maybe two exceptional LMB who rule the pond roost...and that's not a bad thing, IMO. Good luck.

I hate to have to spend valuable time addressing this post. ML is speaking for me in the above post, and I have to say that I don't appreciate his comments nor the context in which he chose to quote.

I guess those posts that ML is referring to are too old to be accessible now, but I have a very good memory for some things. I mentioned that 1000 lbs of HSBs per acre is manageable with good aeration and water quality. I expect to raise the equivalent of 2000 lbs per acre here on the farm with good aeration good source of water to replace evaporation loss. ML needs to realize that there are pond owners out there that DO have good aeration and water sources. ML also needs to be careful not to misconstrue my comments and my agenda as a fishery biologist. I don't make these sorts of recommendations....as a matter of fact, I have NEVER recommended 1000 hsbs per acre to anyone. My agenda with those old posts was to state that it is possible. Here is a link to the HSB page on my website where you'll find my stocking recommendations:

http://www.overtonfisheries.com/StockerFish/SportFish/HybridStripedBass/tabid/229/Default.aspx

I hope I don't have to make further comments. If ML had been at the conference and seen my talk about HSBs, he would have a better understanding.

Hey Beau,
As you can see, there is more than just a little bit of passion on the Pond Boss website. Meadowlark has learned a lot from his ponds. Todd Overton has learned a lot from his, and many others, ponds.
Here's what you need to do.
1) Establish your goals and keep them firmly in hand to start your program.
2) Learn as much as you can about each fish which might fit into your stocking and management plan.
3) Learn as much as you can about the proper care of a pond, its habitat, food chain, genetics and harvest.
4) Evaluate your resources, including the pond, a budget, the time you want to spend caring for the pond and its inhabitants.
5) Make a plan.
6) Follow the plan and monitor its progress, so you will know what to do next.

Here are some facts about the different kinds of fish.

Largemouth Bass (LMB)-In the south, lmb are considered "king" of the fishery. Large mouth, heavy predator, lmb's eat whatever moves and fits into their mouths. The reproduce easily in a pond environment and tend to overpopulate and overeat the food chain. This can be an advantage, especially if your main goal is to grow giant sunfish. The main disadvantage to heavy reproduction is that you have to work hard to grow large bass, especially in small waters. The reason some hatcheries won't recommend lmb in ponds smaller than an acre is because it's hard to keep the fishery balanced. It can be done, fairly easily, if you understand how to play.

Coppernose Bluegill (CNBG)- Sunfish native to Florida, Georgia and Alabama, transplanted with great success all over the south. While these fish thrive in southern waters, they don't particularly do well in the Midwest or North. They grow as large as 2 pounds. I have seen hundreds of thousands...no--millions of cnbg over my 28 year career as a professional private fisheries biologist, and I have seen less than ten that weigh more than a pound. I have probably seen several hundred in the pound and a half size class and thousands that weigh more than a pound. They have a small mouth and tend to take longer to grow large that sunfish with larger mouths. Cnbg aren't picky about what they eat, but prefer insects and small fish. Cnbg readily accept floating fish food. They reproduce like Madonna adopts kids, about three to five times yearly in the south. Cnbg can mature sexually at 2.5 inches in length.

Native strains of bluegill...same as cnbg except native strains often thrive in their native ranges more so than other strains (except for cnbg).

Redear sunfish (RES) grow as large as 1.5 pounds. They feed exclusively on crustaceans...small mussels, snails and crunchy bugs. They won't eat fish food. RES spawn once yearly and are used to help control the spread of grubs, for diversity in fishing and to add and "insurance" policy for extra forage fish for lmb.

Georgia Giants (GG)-a termed coined by Ken's Fish Hatchery in Georgia for a proprietary blend of genetics of fish that are basically a cross between green sunfish (gsf) and bluegill (bg). Ken's has gone through years of sifting and selecting special fish for his crosses and they won't tell anyone what they have done. That's the proprietary part. Debra has done an excellent job of representing that fish in public and on this website. Ken has earned a reputation as a promoter and kind of a maverick in the fisheries business. People continue to buy the GG's, and similar to Meadowlark, are please with their results. I bought some of them in 1985 and raised them in several different hatchery ponds and never had a fish grow larger than 3/4 pound. I gave them up after several years. But, they can serve a good role if you want fast growing sunfish as your primary gamefish or as a secondary fish to a catfish fishery. Some claims have been that GG's will grow larger than 3 pounds. If so, that's an exception, not the rule. It is a true hybrid, and should not be able to reproduce. However, usually 90-95% of the fish are males. The remaining females can have viable eggs and will reproduce, normally with a different species of sunfish. And, when a HSF reproduces, the progeny CAN'T be what its parents were. They have a larger mouth than bluegill and have an early advantage in the food chain. Therefore, expect rapid growth rates from this aggressive creature. But, they are terrible for forage fish production...not only because they don't adequately reproduce to be a food base for larger predators, but also because they directly compete with other predator fish. HSF love fish food, but won't turn down a fish small enough to fit in its mouth.

Hybrid Sunfish (HSF)-readily available sunfish from many different hatcheries around the nation. Most of the time, HSF is the result of a cross between female green sunfish and male bluegills. However, some hatcheries will experiment with different crosses between different species from time to time. Expect this cross to grow to 3/4 pound.

Smallmouth Bass (SMB)-Cool water fish best reserved closer to the Mason-Dixon Line than anywhere in Louisiana, especially in small waters. They can't stand the heat. There's lots more about SMB, but not for this post. Just don't use them in Louisiana.

Hybrid Striped Bass-(HSB) HSB is growing in popularity because it grows fast, readily takes fish food and is easy to catch, if stocked densely enough. Another plus is that what you stock is what you get, considering a moderate amount of attrition. HSB "cruise" a pond, focusing mostly on the open water, looking for food. That makes them of less use in smaller waters than larger bodies. While some people have had success in ponds smaller than an acre, I hear less good things about them than I see or hear in ponds at least three acres in size. They grow exceptionally fast, reaching 8-10 pounds in their third year, if properly fed and with plenty of clean, aerated water in the south.

So, all that to say this...here's what I would do with your pond. Since you want some large sunfish, stock coppernose bluegill with fathead minnows to start. Buy fingerlings and let them grow up. For 1/4 acre, stock 200 fingerling cnbg. If you want fast growing sunfish, stock another 200 HSF. Add three pounds of fathead minnows, make sure they have a place to spawn. Fatheads like to lay their eggs on the underneath side of firm objects such as rocks, pvc pipe, wooden pallets, docks, etc.
Feed your fish a good floating fish food such as Game Fish Chow or Aquamax. Feed what they will clean up in five minutes. If you aren't near your pond, consider a feeder. Feeding expedites things and you can see your fish.
Then, early next spring, stock 5-8 Female largemouth bass to clean up your "excess" sunfish. Buy them from a reputable dealer or hatchery and make sure they are females. That will give you your giant sunfish and 3-5 pound bass for a quarter-acre pond.

Bob Lusk
Editor, Pond Boss magazine
Fisheries Biologist and Lake Management Consultant

That's just one example of why we love this man, although I suspect he may have meant Angelina Jolie.

Thank you guys for the excellent feedback. That is why I joined this site, because alot of yall have already dealt with starting ponds and managing them and have knowledge to share.

Mr.Lusk
While I am open to suggestions and still trying learn some things about pond management I like your idea of stocking my pond. If I am right it would be 200 cnbg, 200 HSF and 3lbs of fatheads, then 5-8 LMB in the spring. Also would it be wise to stock my bream and fatheads if my pond is half full. It is about 13ft. at the deepest, I guess average water depth is 5-6ft.now.

ML
250 GG is alot less than the 750 I was told to put from Ken's. It seems like 750 is alot for 1/4acre. Don't find many SMB in Louisiana so I probably wouldn't have stocked those.What is your website I would like to see those pics.

ML,
I found your homepage looks like you have a nice outfit there and some good fishin. Really nice looking fish.

Beau, go ahead and stock your forage fish now. You have plenty of water.

Theo...I thought Madonna adopts lots of kids because she's a virgin philanthropist. Am I wrong?

I suppose she might be considered a philanthropist.

Beau,

Glad you enjoyed the site....if you are ever traveling down H59 south of Lufkin, let me know and I'd be happy to show you the fish in real life.

. Bob, the song is LIKE a virgin.
:p

I love it when we get to occassionally hear views and insight from Mr. Lusk. I think it enhances this great forum.

Once again thanks for all the info. I will keep yall posted on what I decide and how things turn out. I still have some habitat construction to do, get my water tested, all that good stuff. I will put pictures when I figure it out.

Beau White

If I were to choose the stocking option that Mr.Lusk suggested should I stock the cnbg,fhm and then the hsf later since the hsf grow faster.