Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Help Start amps needed for well pump

I'm stumped as what should be my next step trying to get my pond well pump to work. Here's some backgrond. New hole is 170' deep with static water at 60'. I set a 110v WayneReliant 1/2hp pump at 110' (it's only rated for 100' yet there's open discharge). Recommended wire was 12ga, I went with 10ga. My 2250watt (1800 continuous watts) generator seems to strain for 12 - 18 seconds then kicks off and runs freely. The pump data states it'll pump at 10 amps and max 12 amps. The generator and GFIC switch limit amps to 15a. Here's what I may try:

1 wire 110 without the GFIC and to 30amp outlet (3000W gen #1)
2 wire together 2 GFIC's to get about 25amp (2250W gen #2)
3 return the 2250watt gen and get a 220V gen and 220V pump

Does a pump need more than 12amps to start up? Did I kill it by setting it a bit deep?

IF YOU CAN RETURN IT WITHOUT PENALTY, I WOULD DO THAT. THE START CURRENT ON A SINGLE PHASE 115VAC MOTOR COULD BE 30-40 AMPS EASILY. YOU CAN TRY #1, BUT WHY, IF YOU CAN GO WITH 220?

SoSauty, burger is right on. there is a surge amperage needed to get those things going, it immediately drops off afterwards.

i put a 70 amp line to my 3/4 horse pump set at 200 feet down in a well w/ static water at 20 ft. figured i needed a minimum 6500 watt generator for backup although i havent bought and tested a generator yet.

We have two deep wells with 1/2 hp 110vac pumps, one at about 90 feet and one at about 80 feet (IIRC wrt depth). Our 5000W/6250W surge generator is marginal at being able to start the pumps. It does fine IF we hook it up to the electrical system near a particular pump's location, but will not do a good job of supplying electric to the pump farthest away (the two wells are about 650 feet of distance, plus wire length within the house and the barn, apart).

IME and IMHO your generator isn't big enough.

A good rule of thumb for starting electric motors is to have a breaker 3x the amp capacity of the running amps.

In your case, you should have at least a 30 amp breaker with a generator capable of over 3000 watts.

Wow, 4 quality experience based responses in 1 day. Thanks, I was about to leave the house and trade a still in the box 220V 1/2 hp for the 110V version. After reading from "folks in the know" guess I'll keep my 2nd pump (1/2hp 220V)(plan 3) and instead trade in the little generator for one capable of 220V. Think I'll move the pump up to 100' also.

You would think some web site or remarks on the pump motor box would indicate start up amps. This 1st time do-it-yourself gets expensive!

Anyway, after the pump is up and running, I'll be spreading DB-200/DB-100 and bentonite which is sitting on the bank!

Having recently tried to come up with some pump info for george1, I tend to agree with you. The box was almost useless. There was fair info on the manufacturer's website, but it was not terribly easy to utilize for electrical service evaluation purposes.

A controller box allows you to use much smaller wiring from the controller to the pump on long runs. With a controller, a 3/4hp pump can use 14ga wire for over 600 feet. Without the controller, you'd need 10ga or better for that same run. You still need adequate sized wire for even short runs between the supply and the controller.

Rainman, not disagreeing, just not picturing the scenario. Can you clear that up for me?

thanks

The controller is for the "3 wire pumps and includes capacitors to boost the starting voltage. With the higher voltage you need far less amps.

I don't know the correct numbers, for a simple example, say a pump with a total distance of 600 feet of wiring needs 5 amps to run under a full load, that only requires 14 gauge wire. When starting, it may draw 15 amps, which would require at least 10 gauge wire. 14 gauge wire on a 600' run would probably burn up the motor from low voltage or melt the wire on start-ups. Adding the controller, you only need heavy wiring between the power supply and the controller, because the controller will release the stored high voltage power in the capacitors on each startup and draw the full 15 amps from the power supply, but after the start-up, only the 5 amps is needed.

Clear as mud now?

My my, today was 97, both the temp and humidity. Hard to find a dry spot on my T-shirt to wipe the salty sweat from my eyes. But then, Cool. . .clear. . .water!!

I talked with the WayneReliant pump rep this am. He thought my home improvement store sales guy didn't know much about either generators or submersible pumps. (I thought his company didn't include needed info.) The 110V 1/2hp pump is dead. Probably cause I sent 15amp to it. No way I'll see a refund. He guessed pumps need 3 to 5x's the working amps to start. Not a big deal, but I bought a WaterAce instead of another Wayne.

It's a 220V 1/2hp as it's easier to get 20amp220V than 40amp110V using generators. Set it at 100' and plugged 'er in a 3650W generator that delivers 20amp 220V, 4X's it's max 4.7 working amp. Up comes 11.5gpm, which is more aqua than the well delivers at that level. Choked the discharge down from 1" to 3/4" which slowed it to 10gpm, but estimate only 8gpm available. (Reason I tried to set the 1st pump kinda deep at 110'.)

The larger 4500W generator is loud; hoped the smaller 2250W would've worked out. Maybe I could of run a hot wire from 1 recepticle and another 110V hotwire from its' 2nd receptacle. That might of provided 13amps @ 220V. With a norminal working load of 4.3amps, the little gen. could've provided 3X's amperage for start up. Then again, I might've killed both the generator and another pump. My electrical background is pretty shaky.

So, I started spreading bentonite today. Tomorrow is anniversery with my sweet wife. The pond should be filling with water by Thurs 6/25. (See Walmart Special Kitty litter thread.)

Shawn, how did you arrive at 3X's for a breaker? Do you have some hard data I could look over for current needs and characteristics for deep well pumps?

Everyone here has been super helpful. Thanks!

SoSauty,

Assuming the conductors (wires) are sized approriately to handle the full load amps of the motor, the rule of thumb for starting motors is to have 2.5x the full load amps in your breaker. This is the industry standard. Being overly conservative and living too far from electrical supply houses, I just use 3x as a benchmark.

I know this because I have a good friend who is a whiz at electric motors and motor controls.....and I am his Grasshopper:) Anyway my buddy is the go-to-man around these parts for motor controls. Every grain elevator in a 4 county area calls Jr when they need the problem solved. He's one hell of an electrician. I've also played around with slide tables that calculate this type of stuff. I know, I need a hobby! You can probably do a search on the net using keywords like "motor, controls, starting, amps, breakers". I've never done it but I'm sure you could entertain yourself for a while. Further, if you have a local electrical supply house, they probably carry either Square D or Cutler Hammer products. These two companies generally provide their dealers with the necessary tables to calculate this type of stuff. I'm sure they would let you look at these tables. They are set up like slide rules.

Once while I was at my favorite electrical supply house near closing time, a couple of us designed a portable Christmas tree light and timing system for a local mud run event. A few cases of the cheap beer later, we had it whipped. Whooaaa Hooooo!!! Mud run!!! God Bless America. I always find myself hooking up with creative people who like to tinker in mechanics, electronics, hydraulics, etc. If I knew 17 years ago, what I know now, I wouldn't have went to college. All of the cool information and experience I've acquired dabbling with this type of stuff has been taught to me by salt-of-the-Earth blue collared guys.

Good luck and don't electrocute yourself!!

SoSauty, after your anniversary, I hope you read this. I would in no way let the pump rep talk you into that you 'sent' 15 amps to that pump motor. You dont send amps, you apply the proper voltage to the motor and it 'draws' the correct amps that it is designed/wound to draw, depending upon it's power(wattage) rating. You can connect a 110vac motor to a source that can deliver 1000 amps; if it is a 110vac source, no problem.
No, this is not just an off the wall post. I have spent 34 yrs. on shipboard electronics, including specializing in radar sytems, which use 3 phase, 440/220vac, single phase 110/220vac motors to turn the antennas. Also in years past, motor alternators to supply 1000 hertz voltage before inverters became popular.
Test the pump on a house circuit; if it runs, take it back and swap for a 220. If it doesn't, take it back as defective. If the motor burned up, the generator was the fault. I'm sure it's probably OK.
Shawn Banks is a very attentive 'grasshopper'. He speaks the truth.
Rainman, I am familiar with start windings and phase shift capacitors. Is that what you meant by a controller, or just a remote starting relay?? I will pass on the rest of the explanation.

Rainman,thanks...I just learned something new.
Sosauty,Burger is correct,that guy has a bridge for sale too.You can probably get a differt muffler to shut your new gen up,or at least get it quiter.Talk to your local small engine repair shop.

Gotcha, I read the provided materials and applied the correct voltage. The 220V pump is now at 100'; pumping 11.5 gal with open 1" discharge, 10gpm with a 3/4" discharge, and 8gpm with a 1/2" discharge. I'm burning out fooling with the pump yet think I'll try lowering it to 125' as the well is giving a meager 6gpm at 100'. This has been an experience. Also will work on muffling the generator as it's sitting 450' from the road just out of view. The water is a deliscious 63 degrees! Cools and refreshes, gambusia minnows love it.

Off topic, Shawn, I just finished my 2nd electricity class. Understand alot more yet simplistic questions still linger. Blue collar folks fascinate me, in July I'll play with ram pumps and see if I can't get some water pumped for almost free. I've got the 'Mother of all Ram pumps' a 3" with a 4" foot valve built out of scedule 80 PVC and brass check valve. The 1 that'll fit in your hand, will use a half inch drive pipe, and should pump 12oz a minute, 6000 gal a month, whoopeee!

9/27 edit update; Lowe's had no problem with refunding $$ for 1st 110V pump!! Lowered 220V pump to 127', yet well continues to produce 5-6gpm. I'm discharging into a 5gal bucket from the bottom. At 6gpm, some dime size bubbles appear. At 5gpm, the bubbles are fewer and much smaller. Not sure if this is a reliable indicator of well water production. I'll have to play with it.

The pond level is at 2' (above the 30" hole). Every granule of DB-200 can be seen as goohy white marble size splotches. Should be able to get to 4' this week, a high water record for my .2 acre pond. The perk engineer came by and said the soil perks so well that the pond will have to have some help to seal.