Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Soil questions burning trees during construction

I posed a question about a month ago about what to do with downed trees in the creation of my pond. Some very knowledgeable advisors on this forum expressed concerns about leaving too much green hardwood at the bottom of a pond. My contractor asked about burning most of the trees at the bottom of the future pond... I would appreciate any thoughts/concerns/advise about this proposed route of tree elimination. Any ph concerns? Again my questions expose me as being very "green" in the realm of pond construction...I guess that is why I have an appreciation for the green sunfish...

Hello Cougar,

It probably depends on the amount of trees to burn vs the volume of water that will be in the pond.

My second pond is about 8 acres right now and we burned several brush piles in the bottom before it filled up. My bluegill are spawning on top of one of the burned brush piles right now. I think the like how easy it is to build a nest in the ashes.

That's just my experience. Things could be different with more brush and less water??

Cougar
Have burned lots and lots. If there is to much left over stumps or ash the contractor can dig a hole and get rid of it.

I doubt burning has much chance of causing a problem with pond health afterwards. Brettski, for example, turned pretty much 7 acres of fairly dense woods into 5 acres of pond and burned all of it, IIRC. His fish are doing fine.

Always be careful of safety and local fire likelihood conditions when you burn, of course.

If you have some reason (legal restrictions and/or pesky neighbors), a lot of the bulk that would be burned can be reduced by mulching with heavy duty equipment. But it adds noticeably to the expense (cost me about $1k for 2 days dragging and mulching - see here).

I cleared and burned 7 acres of land to create my 4 acre pond. I burned for months at a time, and had a burn pile several hundred feet long. Green trees don't burn very well, and creating those burn piles with a bull dozer adds allot of dirt to the pile, which also hurts your ability to burn. Even with a rack on the dozer, allot of dirt gets into the pile.

When I was about done burning and digging the pond, I pushed most of the ash and dirt out of the pond and behind part of my dam to creat a picnic area. It's a place where we have set up half a dozen tents and had groups come out to camp on the pond. Then I spread a couple feet of clay over the ash mixture from the bottom of the pond to finish it off.

What was left was piled into structure for my fish. Some huge stumps and chared logs are home now to thousands of fish. A few of those stumps and logs stick up above the suface of the water, which wasn't really planed on, but a welcome surprise. They have become little islands with plants growing on them that look really nice. The logs that stick up from the piles are also favorite resting places for birds and turtles. To me, it makes it look even more natural and attractive.

As for water PH and fish health, I think it's too insignificant to be measureable. Kind of like pouring a gallon of bleach into a one acre pond. While the bleach is pure poison, it is so diluted in the pond that nothing will notice it and mother nature will break it down into nothing rather quickly.

Eddie

Eddie, the stumps and logs are good structure in my pond also, I have one stump about 2 ft. underwater that is hollowed out on top and every year I see PS's using it for a nest.

Thanks everyone.
My concerns are alleviated.

If the trees are oaks, walnuts, etc and decent size (greater than 10" diameter) why not have them cut into lumber? I have about 2500 to 3000 BF in the area that I will be clearing for a pond later this summer and that is my plan. Local sawer is charging me $0.25/bf to cut it for me. I plan on making wood flooring for the future house out of it and maybe other things. I am assuming that I will still have a decent burn pile left after this but that will get burn in the winter.

I think it would be special to be able to build flooring or any other lumber needs for your house by cutting the wood off your own property. Timber prices right now have plummeted recently so trying to sell the wood is not going to be as financially rewarding as it was a few years ago...

Tell me about it, I have 24,000 bf on another part of the property that needs harvesting and it just isn't worth it right now. Hope that changes in a couple of years.

Timely post for me. I'm currently logging my 80 acre woods to raise money for a pond that is going to be dug later this summer. The loggers are within a week of finishing and they expect to reach about 115,000 bf. The higher dollar logs are soft maple and the rest are mainly ash and sycamore with a few cherry (wish I had more) and a few walnuts (really wish I had more) mixed in. This is going to cover the cost of clearing around 2 acres of woods and digging a 1/2 to 3/4 acre pond.

Is there any art in placing the burned stumps into the pond? Deepest water or shallow? My pond will drop down at 1:3 to a max depth of 15 feet.

Lassig,
I had thought of that, but the majority of the pond is thick trees that are not quite ten inch circumference. There are probably 15 total oaks of rather large size and about that many more hickory. I too hate to see them wasted. Too late for cutting lumber for use in my house as it was completed last year. Would that be enough trees to mess with?

Sure is, sounds to me well over 1000 bf and that is the minumum that most sawers want before they will come out and cut it. For my 2500 - 3000 bf it is going to cost me $800 - $1000 to cut, stack and protect them (end paint, shade cloth, and top cover). That comes in at under $0.33 a bf, much cheaper than buying the wood and you have the satisfaction that it came from your property. Of course this does not include the table saw, planar, and shaper you need to take advantage of the wood, but I have those already and enjoy wood working.

Absolutely correct. We fried pretty much every one of them and buried whatever unburned root balls were left.
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Fresh green timber will burn like a bonfire when it's handled correctly. Alot of the burn has to do with tending. The burn pile has to be adjusted a few times during a day (about once per hour in the beginning) and it can burn down significantly overnight. Another part of preparing the timber for the burn is proper removal. The key is cutting off as much of the peripheral root ball when it is still in the ground. A trackhoe is great for this since the bucket can be used. A dozer must have an articulated blade that will tilt down at each end. This slide show represents the timber removal for our driveway. It contains some process details.
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edit: Another simple key to a good burn is how the trees are dragged to the burn pile. The blade on the dozer is the big player here. The corners of the dozer blade should have a point. This point is used to hook the root ball and pull it along side as it rides to the burnpile. The linked photo album will show some examples.

Good deal brettski. the process you described is the process my contractor is using with the track hoe and all....he's making on really high burn pile. he said he's gonna let it dry for only 10 days....would've thought it would've taken longer..

he also suggested Walking down (bending /breaking over with a dozer) a section of the jungle like thicket(small trees) instead of complete removal for fish structure...has anyone on here done that? pros/cons?

My first post on PB was right after we completely cleared the pond of timber. Lusk kindly jumped right in to help me out, along with the PB family. Lusk immediately noted that complete removal of all trees was not necessary and possibly a mistake if we were after a great fishin' hole. In my case, it was the plan and I don't regret it....yet. The only issues would be the type of tree and whether it could release toxid chems/tannins. Dave Davidson has the background on some of that.

Brettski is right the burning of a brush pile starts when the tree is first pushed down and moved to the pile, not done correctly the pile will not burn.