Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Ultimate BIG-Bass Pond????

What A GREAT forum. I have learned a tremendous amount of info on this site. And one thing I have learned is that there is a growing appreciation for tilapia, so i propose a ?
I am building a 6 acre excavation pond that could easly be made into 2 - 3 Acre ponds.My average winter temp is 70 degrees (Deep South Texas)My water does not fluctuate and will be airiated to 20'. As well as fertilized. What if I stock only threadfin shad, tilapia, and LMB. I see other post that people can catch tilapia like BG. I would plan to elecroshock yearly so i can manage, and i can take out the huge tilapia at that time. I would love to hear some opinions on this idea. I can put BG in my other 3 acre pond and if i decide to i can combine the 2 easly.

What about a 5 acre main pond with a connected 1 acre forage grow out pond. Connect them with a 6ft opening with the ability to close off the openig with rigid plastic netting/fencing. Idea is to grow out extra forage and open the gate and drive them into the main pond. Close the gate back and shock up some large tilapia and some shad and put them back behind the net and add a few select best conditioned LMB from the 1 year age class. Just a different thought.

I'd go traditional in a five acre pond with high quality stockers, lots of forage and good harvest practices.

Then I'd go with a one acre pond, all female largemouth, fatheads, and intensive feeding.
The dumb fatheads will feed on pellets all day, and the female largemouth will gorge themselves on fatheads until they practically explode. Run the feeders right over the top of well placed structure.

There are plenty of ways to do this, but that would be my favorite possibility for ultimate potential size.

Has anyone used this approach of stocking tilapia, TFS with LMB w/o BG. (for giant LMB not tilapia Production)

Ewest: Are you saying put the best LMB in the 1 acrs pond? and whats the purpose of that if thats supposed a forage pond?

Bruce: I Plan to cull males as much as possible. can you give me a recomendation for High quality Stock? How do I keep the LMB from eating all the FHM & would'nt tilapia provide alot more forage?

For the LMB, FHM option you'd have to go with all female LMB. That way you could keep the density low enough that the predators couldn't keep up with minnow reproduction. It would be almost fool proof if you could keep male LMB from entering the system.

You are correct that if you had LMB reproduction that you'd need an alternative forage.

I like the idea of using tilapia as the main forage base in S. Texas. That's been tried in Mexico but I don't remember the results. My only concern is the possibility of an unusual, but not unknown, big freeze. Rare, but it can happen. If you think about it, citrus crops have been destroyed in the valley along with those on both coasts.
For that reason, I would be afraid to ignore bluegill.

L.W.J.,

If it were me, I would do two, 3 acre ponds. The main reason I would do that is to better manage the ponds, especially as relates to LMB conditioning. With two ponds one can far better manage the fishing pressure on each one. I know from experience, that I can condition just about every LMB to artificials in a 5 acre pond in well less than a month. If you plan to fish exclusively with bait, then that factor probably does not matter.

Regarding the forage and use of threadfin shad and Tilapia...and someone mentioned fatheads, but I would forget about them other than an initial stocking which will disappear quickly in a good Texas LMB pond.

There is a lot of disagreement on threadfins for small waters. I can give you my personal experience and the recommendations of one of the most respected fish pros in Texas. I tried to stock threadfins twice in a 4 acre pond in East Texas. Each time, the predators wiped them out. Each time, 10,000 threadfins were placed in the pond in spring and by the next spring they were completely gone. I asked Bob Waldrop, Tyler Fish Farms, if I should try again. He is the guy who was selected to stock George Bush's ponds in Crawford. He also makes money by stocking threadfins. He told me flat out that he will not stock threadfins in any LMB pond less than 5 acres. His stated beliefs, from years of experience, is that it isn't low temperatures which get to the threadfins in most Texas ponds, it’s the lack of extensive deep water in which to hide. In a small pond in winter, the threadfins bunch up in the deepest water and if that is a relatively small area, then they are completely vulnerable to LMB predation.

In your area with water temps no lower than 70 degrees, you may be able to avoid this problem...or maybe not.

However, just in case you can't, my approach would be to go with CNBG and Tilapia as the primary forage. Together, they generate tremendous forage through-out the year. One thing to note is that Tilapia do not spawn at or below 68 degrees water temp and spawn best at temps above 80 degrees. Hence, you probably shouldn’t expect a lot of spawning activity in winter, but together with BG, I would guess the forage would be more than adequate. As I’ve mentioned in other posts, removal of the large Tilapia, those over three or four pounds, may be advisable based on the research in LMB lakes in Mexico.

There are a couple of folks who occasionally visit this forum, Texas715 and Casca, who have over wintering Tilapia. According to posts that I’ve read from Texas715(Greg) , he has great LMB fishing…hopefully you will also have that and achieve your objectives.

If you don't want BG you will need other forage. Some combination of tilapia , FH , TShad , GShiners , craws and /or feeding. I would put in some RES for snail control. Stock the main pond with all the predators and forage just as normally done but under stock the LMB numbers by 20-30%. Close off the forage pond first.

On the small forage pond the idea is a continuum. First with no predators grow the extra forage by feeding and then force them into the main pond so that the forage pond is almost empty. Then close it off , shock up some adult forage fish (or catch them by line or seine) and put them back in the forage pond to re-seed it. Then 8-12 mths after original stocker LMB spawn in the big pond, and you do a shock survey (or by seine or line) keep a few of the 12in LMB (biggest best conditioned females) exhibiting the best genetics and put them (say 25 fish) in with the forage which will be growing in the forage pond. Those few LMB will be hand picked and have the best chance of superior growth (all they can eat with no competition) with no chance of being eaten by their parents. They will not be able to eat the adult forage tilapia but will eat FH and small tilapia/other forage. Those 25 LMB will not make a large difference in the amount of forage grown in the forage pond. After a year run all those LMB and forage out of the forage pond and start the process over. A never ending supply of the best of the brood 3-4 lb 2 yr old LMB and forage going into the big pond every year. Those extra 25 4lb LMB will help keep down the small LMB in the big pond and replace the first year class (and each succeeding year class) of LMB which you harvest/or die (natural morts). In short you will always have extra forage and some hand selected female LMB in the range size that is usually missing in LMB ponds due to many range bound 10-12 in LMB.

By emptying the forage pond you will remove the numerous adult fish which can produce the breeding suppression chemical (factor) in ponds which are near capacity with fish. Tilapia , GShad , BG and others have been proven to suppress spawning/reproduction in themselves and other fish when there are lots of them or near carrying capacity.

That is the concept. It will take some work but any good LMB pond does.

Dave: Thats a good point and why I propose adding shad to the mix from the begining. And the brings up another ?. How long does it take for 8-12' of water to = air temperature. In the case of Citrus it can be 65 degrees in the day and a one night hard freeze of 30 degrees can distroy the crop. Deeper water won't change temp that fast will it? It's very important that some one give me the answer to that ?. My town is very unique. for those who have never been here. Brownsville Tx, check it out on google earth, all those long green snake looking features are what locals call a (resaca). Their big ponds(no cover & fullof silt) from where the Rio Grand River changed course through the years. Anyway, there full of tilapia and threadfin shad. Every bass ive caught from them look like footballs. and 2 years ago it snowed on christmas eve here 3-5", thats right Dave you may remember that on the news. Brownsville had a white christmas, what are the odds of that. My office overlooks one of those ponds of about 40 acres and i didnt notice any fish kills. The water is always dark and stained about 6' avg depth? Again its the weather pattern. If it gets cold and some times it does, it don't last long. Hince all the winter texans(snow birds). And my final ? would be if it did sustain cold enough temps to kill the tilapia and shad w/20' water depth would that temp also kill my Fl.LMB. I hope I'm not asking dumb ?'s I just want to know as much as possible before i pull the trigger. Good news for ya'll is I would document this experiment in extreme detail w/pics and data.

Ewest: YOU ARE THE MAN. SOOOLLLDD!!!! Thanks for the detailed explaination. That soounds like a winner. Have you done this for yourself or am I the guinepig? How would you stock the ponds? And let me explain to the forum. I love Big BG. Im originaly from GA. And love to catch big bream off the beds, BUT I think tilapia taste better they get alot bigger, well hum? Georgia Giants. anyhoo, for those who have caught them say they fight great, so What I was thinking is that if my pond can only support so much Biomass and could support tilapia yr round would'nt it be a better choice than BG for my goal of trophy LMB and large slabs of good meat to fry? Now what time of year do you run out and restock the forage BIG LMB pond,Spring? and how do you sex a 8-12 inch bass?

OH Yea, where do yall recomend i post pics and data of this project, should I wait untill after the pond is done and show one thread from start to finish or should i post as i go, what do yall prefer.

As you go please - give us a chance to learn from and kibbitz each step.

L.W.J., what Theo said.

If you haven't noticed already, we're all real good at spending other people's money when it comes to ponds

Most of us are too good at spending our own $ as well.

ML, I hope Waldrop will attend the PB conference next week.
I would like to hear his opinion on forage for small ponds.

He once told me that he doesn’t like to fool with small ponds, but does so as a “service”, but that was several years ago.

He provided some of our original stockers and was very helpful, but was unable to locate HSB, since that was my primary objective.

My ponds are not designed that way. But I use blocking nets to do some of the same things. My efforts were not on a new pond so I am not adding LMB behind the forage net except to habituate them when stocked.

Water temps change slowly. If you have checked locally and have not seen or heard of tilapia die-offs in your area you should be ok. The Fla LMB will be ok as will the TShad.

The nature of your question was for ideas. If I was in the position you described I would try what I explained. That does not necessarily mean it is the right choice for you. My best advice is to learn as much as possible and start by contacting Bob or Todd or one of the other Fisheries Scientists hear and ask them for advice (including what I suggested). They could design a plan for your specific pond with your goals and within your intended work parameters. Better yet sign up for the PB convention next week and get a crash course and meet the people.

The pond where we store our pure florida LMB broodstock has been set up with threadfins and tilapia only. It has been successful so far, keeping the equivalent of 200 bass per acre fat and happy. We keep the water fertilized with cottonseed meal so that we get optimal recruitment of shad and tilapia forage.

Here's what you should watch out for down south: Tilapia are terribly difficult to harvest via electrofishing. I don't know exactly why this is. You'd have to rely on a different method for harvest.

If you keep your water fertilized then threadfin shad can be a good long-term forage base, even in a predator heavy pond. In my opinion, the key to success with shad is not depth or structure, it is about the density and type of plankton bloom. I have experience with successful shad stocking in small ponds. ALL successful pond have the same type of "meaty" bloom, characterised by greenish-brown water with 12"-20" of visibility.

Small ponds that are super-clear, muddy, chalky, or overgrown with submerged vegetation aren't candidates for shad. The best way to achieve this type of bloom in a small pond is to control submerged vegetation and add organic fertilizers over time. One or two applications of 200 lbs cottonseed meal per acre in the spring usually helps, or a long-term feeding program also may encourage a stable "meaty" bloom.

I also might add that all forage fish will perform better in this type of water, not just threadfins.