Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose New guy getting ready to stock a new pond

Hi all. New poster, found this site on the internet a few days ago while doing research. Very impressed with the knowledge and willingness to share here. I just subscribed to the Pond Boss magazine and think I will enjoy it.

I am getting ready to stock a newly constructed pond; 1.3 acres,max depth around 12'in the eastern panhandle of WV quite a few stumps etc scattered around the bottom for structure and cover. At this point I plan on using a total package from Zetts Fish Hatchery in Innwood WV. Containing Large Mouth bass, Blue gills, Red Gills(?not sure what they are anybody know)Channel catfish and koi along with various forage items and fathead minnows.

Objective is a balanced pond with decent sized bass and pan fish. Because of the balance issue I deleted yellow perch and crappies from the package as both of them seem to have a tendency to over populate and stunt in smaller ponds even though Zetts wanted to sell them. The shiners which Zetts also recommended have really taken over a 20 + acre pond I am familiar with in the area (growing up to 10 or 12 inches)that pond already had large bass when they were introduced so I will do without shiners for now and if my bass need more forage later I will introduce them later

Welcome to PB. Glad you posted. Do you know the #s and sizes of the fish. The "Red Gills" are probably RES (redear sunfish). Good idea to be sure exactly what is stocked.

Hi ewest:
Thanks for your reply. Hope you have a really good holiday.
The package as modified by me: LMB 200 size 1"-2",1,000 Red and Blue Gills 1" to 2",100 channel catfish 2"-3", 200 Rosey Red minnows,2,000 fat head minnows,100 assorted snails, 100 crayfish, 100 bullfrog tadpoles,1qt Daphnia, 20 Koi no size specified. 50# of fish meal. I will get on one of the threads about acronyms as I get more familiar with the site and topics.

The package originally included: 100 stripped yellow perch 1"-2", 100 black and White Crappies 1"-2" and 100 breeder shiners 3"to4" all of which fish I am familiar with; but personal knowledge or research indicates have potential problems in a smaller, balanced farm type pond hence the deletion.

They are supposed to get back to me on a change in price or throw in extra minnows for the perch and crappies I deleted. Asked the gal I talked to if Red Gills were Shell Crackers or RES, she said no but I don't think she was too knowledgeable she did not seem to know exactly what they were so I thought I'd call back next week as the pond was filling for the third time (construction problems that my designing engineer is on top of) I would like some RES or Shell Crackers because of their superior size relative to BGs and effect on possible snail hosted parasites

You have a desire or reason for the koi?

Hi Theo:

No reason at all, they just come as part of an advertised complete stocking package as part of a discounted deal vs ordering fish separately. Is there something I should know? All I know about them is they are a Japanese ornamental that feeds on Algae do they have potential for any kind of problem in a basic conservative LMB BG pond? It would be easy enough to delete them also at this time and add them later at a larger size if I have any algae problems

Also does anyone have any comments about the package as modified? I have fished a fair number of ponds but this is the first one I have ever built, stocked or owned.

You don't need any of that. They are just trying to sell you stuff.

I agree with Chris. Snails, frogs, and daphnia will volunteer. Crawdads could be good, IF they are the right species. I can't recall anyone mentioning koi used for algae control - only as ornamentals (OK if that's what you want them for). Whether 50 # of fish food is a good deal or not depends on the feed and the price (and if you intend to feed, of course).

Note that I stocked 100 Bullfrog tads in each of my ponds, but only for the Bullfrogs' sake.

Here is the catalog for zetts. I think the combo Panhandleguy is looking at is on page 6.

http://zettsfishhatchery.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/CompleteCatalog.pdf

The rosey red fatheads are like $45/lb at best and should be no more than $10/lb. Daphnia will already be in the pond at densities of several individuals per gallon of water. Added 500 would be like a drop in the bucket.

Hi Chris:

You are probably right as to the combo I am looking at, its on page 16 rather than 6 probably a typo in your post. However after more reading on the PB Forums and considering this groups very informed and educational postings, definitely including yours. I am developing second thoughts as to what to stock and when to stock it. I need to step back and rethink this.

As of now the basic fish mix seems OK to me: LMB,BG, RES,CC and temporary forage IE Fat Heads and maybe Rosey Red minnows but it now appears to me from another thread on PB that RRs are just a color variation on FHMs.

However at this point it seems that the best thing to do would be stock the forage minnows and some sunfish fry shortly and let them get established and stock the bass and maybe the CCs later in the fall or next spring. It also looks smart to see if I can not get about 25-50 bigger bluegills 5"-6" or more to let them spawn this summer.(cost effectiveness and year class recruitment per forum suggestion again) As for the crayfish I can probably catch a hundred or so of those in the local South Branch of the Potomac watershed in one or two nights thereby eliminating any issue of non native species. The other stuff now appears to be redundant or unnecessary as it seems they will most likely volunteer on their own. I certainly need to look at the economics and cost effectiveness more carefully to see what is the cheapest way to get what my pond will need to achieve the objectives. Reading the various PB forums makes me conscious of issues like feeding, aireation and fertilizing also.

panhandleguy,

Good to have you aboard! You are not far from me as I am in northern VA. Another poster on here, catmandoo is a hop, skip and a jump away from you in Hampshire Co, WV. My family owns hunting land and a trout stream in Bedford Co, PA just north of Berkley Springs. Check out the Pond Boss Forum Map and add yourself. Plus you can see where many others on here are that post...

Catmandoo has had good luck with Zetts but you have to know what you want and tell them that. Or they will sell you everything and the kitchen sink! Although you may save some money doing their package thing, as others have said you're getting stuff you don't need.

Redgills maybe redear sunfish(RES) or they maybe pumpkinseed sunfish(PS). Make sure your clarify... RES are very desirable, PS are not so much. So I would make sure they are RES. Also, when they mix bluegill(BG) and "redgill" together, clarify want the percentage of each species will be. You want about a 7 to 3 ratio of BG to RES.

The removal of the black grappie(BCP), white crappie(WCP) and yellow perch(YP) was a good move. Managing crappies in a pond your size can be very difficult. YP are not necessarily a bad thing for ponds but require special management practices. If you are interested, many on here have experience with them with Bill Cody knowing the most.

Koi are just fancy colored carp. Algae is not anything close to being a high percentage of their diet. 50 of them seems like an awful lot for a pond your size. Depending on the size they are when stocked, they will most all survive and 50 carp in your pond will make a mess. 5 koi in your pond, maybe if you want to see some colorful fish for entertainment purposes, but that is all they will be.

Daphnia are zooplankton, adding them probably is not necessary but can't hurt. Some snail species are not particularly wanted in a pond. So be shy about adding them. Crayfish of certain species can be good, but be careful which species, ones like the rusty crayfish can be detrimental to a pond and are illegal to stock in many areas.

Last but not least, throwing everything into the pond at the same time is not the best way to start a new pond... My recommendation is that you stock your forage fish first and give them the rest of the spring and all summer to spawn their brains out and make lots of babies. Then add the game fish after...

I have not had issues with golden shiners(GSH) taking over small ponds with larger bass present in them. If anything, but bass tend to wipe the shiners out in just a few years. I think Theo has documented this on the forum before. If you are shiner shy, then skip them, but realize, getting them introduced after the bass get a foothold will be quite the challenge, many of the forum members can attest to this. Personally, I would stock small GSH, so they don't get too big too fast but are present before the bass are. Zetts also sells a species they call "bull minnows" which are also known as banded killifish. I have had a lot of experience with them and think they make a great addition to ponds for use as a forage fish. They unlike GSH don't grow to large sizes so their is no risk of them "taking over" plus they seem to handle predation better than FHM and will not disappear after a couple years of the bass being present.

So here's my stocking recommendation for you...

This spring:
1,000 fathead minnows(FHM) at $85.00
Skip the rosey reds, they are just a color morph of the FHM and do nothing special other than get eaten quicker...
500 banded killifish(bull minnows) at $85.00
100 GSH at $65.00

This fall:
450 1"-2" BG at $0.55 each ($247.50)
200 1"-2" RES at $0.55 each ($110.00)
(Zetts may mix them, so getting the percentage you want will require you speaking with them)

Next spring:
130 2"-3" largemouth bass(LMB) at approximately $117.00

For a grand total of $709.50

You can add as many channel catfish(CC) as you are planning on harvesting. Remember though, if you don't plan to harvest many don't put many in. CC take up a lot of biomass and will be feed hogs if you plan on feeding your fish. Theo has put some great info on the forum about this and the hook shyness large ones get later down the road. So keep this in mind.

YP can always be added down the road when and if you decide you want some...

With my recommendation I feel you'll get a good balance going for a more northern pond. It may be tough to wait a full year more to get bass in the pond, but that wait will be well worth the return in the long run.

Many species of crayfish found in moving waters are not going to do well in a pond. You may be better off trying a local pond or lake for your crayfish trapping. Then you'll know the species you catch are suited to a still water life.

"Koi are just fancy colored carp. Algae is not anything close to being a high percentage of their diet. 50 of them seems like an awful lot for a pond your size. Depending on the size they are when stocked, they will most all survive and 50 carp in your pond will make a mess."

I second that.

For a point of reference, I'm talking about a 365 acre lake here.

Wednesday water visibility was almost 4' (48") I could see a 2" white twister tail jig on the bottom of 4' of water. Thursday the carp (plain colored Koi) started spawning. By Friday visibility was 24" max and deteriorating fast. This morning @ 6:00 a.m. visibility was 18".

Just for that reason, I don't want any in my pond.

Like CJ said, CC is a put-n-take fishery, and when they get larger they get VERY hook shy, and they feed on fish just like a LMB. I just caught one out of my pond earlier this week on a 4"-5" floating Rapala that was 27" and 10.33#. Monday evening the 50 hook trot line is going in and I'll see what bites overnight. 5/0 circle hooks, liver and hot dogs on alternating hooks for bait.

Hello Panhandleguy and welcome to Pond Boss.



Yep you'll learn all kinds of great stuff here, occasionally see some disgusting photos, hear some good stories, become informed about topics that you would have never considered before.

Oh and on occasion we discuss pond topics.

Hi CJBS2003:

Where in northern VA? I live in the northwestern corner of Hardy County about a mile and a half west of 220 and a mile or so south of the Hampshire line.

I looked at your stocking mix and timing and it appears to make a lot of sense to me. Since CC are put and take I see no reason for them in this pond. Unless they do a good bit of house keeping in cleaning the bottom etc. I agree it is a pain to wait a year to add the LMB but if it is worth doing it is worth doing right. Don't know much about Pumpkinseeds but definitely like what I have read about RES. It would be pretty easy to get the crayfish from a pond instead of the river, again it makes sense. Timing would not seem to matter on the crayfish as long as I got a hundred or so in by fall.

As Koi appear to be a pure ornamental I can put a few in at anytime in a larger size if I decide I want them. Definitely don't want carp of any color. I am still a bit paranoid about the shiners. the pond in question is one of the flood control dams built after the 86 flood and already had LMB up to 6 pounds or more before the GSH were added and now 1/3 or more of the small fish you catch are shiners. Admittedly the pond has not been well managed. The fatheads and Banded Killifish look good; I will think about the GSH a little more.

In general though I think I will go with your recommendations; I presently have about 2 to 4 feet of water in an area about 100 ft by 150 feet. So I think I could go ahead and stock the forage minnows. My engineer when he designed the pond put a 6"drain line in the bottom with about a 2 ft riser on it to keep a small pool but still allow it to be mostly drained to remove sediment or repair the pond. It is spring feed and takes about 2 weeks to fill without rain. About an inch of rain will fill it as it has about a 600 acre watershed all pasture and wooded no cultivation. Mostly active pasture with cows.

I will look up catmandoo's posts; he probably lives pretty close to me.

I am in Stafford, VA. Pumpkinseeds are closely related to RES some call them their northern cousins but they are not that similar. RES rarely overpopulated while PS will. As far as the CC go, I'd personally stock a low number. Say 20, just to fill the niche they take up but not so many they out do their welcome. You are correct about the koi, if you want a few swimming around for entertainment purposes, when you stock your bass place 2, 3, 5 or what ever number you want that are 6" plus. They'll be too big for your original bass stockers to eat but their babies will get gobbled up by the bass so you don't have an over population issue... Your pond would do fine without the GSH, but I would still add them. Again, if you're gun shy about them. Skip them or wait until you stock your fingerling bass next spring to stock adult fish then. That should help keep them from getting too big a start on your bass... It sounds like you have plenty of water to stock the forage fish. I'd get the FHM and bull minnows/banded killies in the water now.

Take some pictures of your set up and post them on-line. We all love pictures on here!

Hi CJBS2003:
I had a few thing that sort of took up my Memorial day and most of Sunday but I have reached a few conclusions:

1. I will gamble on the shiners in moderation
2. I have made arrangements to stock the GSH, FHM and bull Minnows (Banded Killifish)per your recommendation on next Saturday.

When should I stock the 20 CC this fall with the BGs and RES or next year with the LMB.

I have looked at the pumpkinseed pictures on the forum and think they are the same fish that we used to catch in the South Branch of the Potomac above Moorefield in the 1950s. They were not real common but you usually caught about 1 for every 20 or 25 rock bass. BG were not common in the river either BG mostly occurred in farm ponds and back water sloughs then.

We called them Red Ears for the red spot on their gill flaps, they were feisty little critters and averaged notably smaller than the Rock Bass and were definitely not BGs looking at the pictures I am pretty sure they were pumpkinseeds; although I have not personally fished the South Branch in at least 25 years a friend tells me they still occur in the river but not nearly as commonly as BGs. As a matter of curiosity how big are they further down stream in your area?

I was planning on buying a digital camera this year anyway so I will get one and learn to post pictures

I think the FHM, GSH, banded killi combo will be a great forage base start for your pond. Each fish has very different niches so they should all mesh together nicely.

I would stock the CC in the spring with the bass.

Pumpkinseeds are only 1 of 2 native sunfish commonly caught on the Potomac River, the other being the redbreast sunfish which you probably caught plenty of with the rock bass. Pumpkinseeds rarely get large anywhere. Most of the PS I catch in the lower Potomac are less than 6" with the largest being around 8". I caught several nice ones this past weekend as they are bedding now and the males are easy to catch now. I may keep some males next year to stock a pond with.

BG were introduced into the Potomac in the 1800's along with many of the other common gamefish like large, small and rock bass. Redears never seem to be abundant in rivers, I have only caught two in the Potomac in many years of fishing it. They are fairly common in several local lakes and impoundments though. The Potomac and its branches is quite the fishery!

Keep us updated on your progress and take photos of your stocking efforts...

I don't know anything about that area but wonder why you would wait for the BG and RES until Fall. Since they are the backbone of the forage, we generally stock them with the minnows in Texas.

I agree with Dave, no reason to wait, in fact big advantage to stock sooner than later. If stocked sooner you may be able to stock less.

Because his pond is not in the deep south and allowing BG and RES a huge jump start on the bass will lead to imbalance. The need to stockpile BG and RES a whole year in advance is not needed in a northern pond IMO and IME.

BG and RES are stocked in the fall and should be large enough to spawn by spring. The small bass will be stocked the same spring the sunfish first spawn. The bass begin controlling the sunfish spawning while also feeding on all the previously stocked forage fish. Adding the sunfish too early in a more northern pond can lead to stunting and a biomass bottleneck.

Just my 2 cents...

The more northern the climate (include elevation in the mix)the less time you should give the BG to get ahead. Some publications even say stock the FH then LMB then BG. BG stunting in cold climes is a bigger threat than in the south. If the minnows go in now I would even move up the LMB stocking (low #s per acre) to this fall along with the BG and CC. Assuming all are 2 inch fish. If some of the BG are adults (3 inchs +) I would move up the LMB stocking.

Hi All:

Thanks for all of the insight and feedback; I had a previous post to CJBS2003 that did not get posted, my bad.

CJ; The pumpkinseeds around here run on average less than 5" 8" would be very exceptional. Did not know bass and rockbass were not Potomac River natives. There were a very rare few Redbreast "sunfish" around in the 1950s and early 60s when I was fishing the South Branch watershed of the Potomac intensively but in my intensive career around the South Branch I doubt that I caught a total of 10. The majority of the sunfish were Rockbass called gogleyes, the gamefish Small Mouth a few LMB in backwaters and oxbows downstream from Moorefield and stocked trout about 15 miles upstream.

The pond is filling and I will put about a pickup load of used or broken cinderblocks from a wall in the pond bottom for additional structure; presently have about a dozen stumps with rootballs and one complete pinetree about 20 feet. In addition I should be able to get about a pallet full of defective or broken ceramic flue liners and tile culvert from our local tile and block distributor. Too bad I did not have Theo's family example and artistic talent; my structure will not be nearly as artistic as his pond but hopefully will work.

All those broken cinder blocks and tiles will be great spawning structure for the FHM. They should really blow up in numbers!

The upper Potomac is quite the fishery these days. Pure musky naturally reprduce, tiger musky are stocked, walleye, smallies and the occasionally lost stocked trout. If I lived closer I'd fish it more often... The lower Potomac is a whole different treat. I don't think I have ever caught a pumpkinseed in the upper Potomac. Not many bluegills either, most of them were in back water areas. Most of the sunfish I catch in the upper Potomac are redbreast sunfish, some green sunfish and rock bass. Also a few scattered black crappies and like you said a handfull of largemouth in the backwaters with the bluegill...

Hi CJBS2003:

I am definably now set up to stock minnows on Saturday. I was thinking this thing through to be sure it was properly planned and organized and realized I was still uncertain on a couple of matters:

I understand that the cinderblock and tile will be good spawning structure for the fatheads, but now realize that I have no idea as to what to supply in terms of structure for the Banded Killifish or the GSH to spawn effectively. I presently plan on putting the cinderblock and tile in what will be 12 to 18 inches of water with about 6 inches minimum water above the structure top.

Since the CC are tunnel nesters what about putting one or two flue liners or tile pipes in three to four feet of water with one end blocked? This also raises the issue of spawning areas for the gamefish? The bottom of the pond will be either clay or shale with more clay area than shale do I need to add any thing else at this point?

The other item was what time in the fall to stock the BG and RES, September? and about late April or May next year for the LMB and CC?

I currently don't plan on feeding. But considering the wooded nature of 2/3 of the pond bank I wonder if I should not consider aeration for aerobic digestion of leaves which will be almost impossible to keep out of the pond; the idea here would be to prevent the build up of a large amount of organic muck "loonshit" on the pond bottom in a few years. Not to mention the other obvious benefits of oxygenation and circulation.

Somebody should have warned me how addictive this pond stuff is; I am already thinking about building another pond and possibly experimentally stocking it with native fish maybe even chain pickerel instead of bass etc in a few years (LOL)

The water depth for spawning structure for the FHM is fine... As long as they have a couple inches of water over their heads, they'll be happy. So anything from about 6" to 18" depth should be good for them.

GSH and banded killies spawn in similar ways. They lay their adhesive eggs on aquatic vegetation, filamentous algae and sometimes submerged woody and other structure. Almost any pond will have at least moderate amounts of spawning structure for GSH or banded killies. Do a search on the forum and look for threads on GSH artificial spawning structure. There are some good ideas on here so if you feel your pond won't have enough you can consider those options...

Also, I just stocked two ponds with PK grass shrimp. Grass shrimp are an excellent forage for sunfish and small bass. Now is the best time to stock them before you get predatory fish in your pond. TJ, is about to make another order and you maybe able to split the order with him to help cut down on the cost of them. Check out his post on the building a food chain sub forum if interested...

Most pond owners don't want CC spawning in their ponds. So they try to prevent it by leaving spawning structure out. This is so they can closely control the CC population. CC are one of the cheaper fish to buy and easiest to source and stock. If you want to have a self reproducing CC population, then the addition of structure like flu liners, large PVC pipes, 5 gallon buckets etc with one end blocked off will work. 3' to 4' of water seems to be a good depth.

Late September to early October would be a good time to stock in the fall. Late April or early May would be a good time for the LMB and CC. You should be able to source small fingerling bass by that time.

Aeration would be a smart idea in my opinion. I am far from an expert on that subject though. You may want to consider a separate post in the Aeration forum describing the details of your pond and what your concerns are... You should get some good help as there are a number of companies who post on here who are supporters of Pond Boss and know their stuff when it comes to aeration. Nothing wrong with not feeding, all the more reason to build a good natural food chain though.

Pond management can be very addictive! Stocking fish from the wild has its risks, however some species such as chain pickerel can only be sourced from wild stock, so their is no other alternative...