Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Building a dam I need RAIN!!!

Got our pond renovations done and patched up the dams this spring. Seeded, added erosion control, wood duck boxes are set, fish structure is in, dock is framed...and we haven't had more than 1" of rain all spring! Starting to worry that we're not going to get enough to fill things up this year.

I have a spring fed creek about 250ft away from one pond. Don't know the flow, but it's about 15ft wide, 18" deep and flows pretty steady. Are there some old posts about the pros, cons, and possibilities of renting a trash pump or something and pumping some water in to get things started?

Not sure if this would be an exercise in futility or worthwhile. I'll worry about water rights, etc after I know whether this is even a good idea. Option two: learn rain dance. Thoughts?

Yo Matt

First off, congrats on all the progress. I am anxious to see it sometime. I've had 1.5" since January. Amazing...down probably 3+ feet...I have my electrical inspector due tomorrow and hopefully water pumping Wednesday - not a day too soon. I've been saying this for weeks, however.

IMO here's the pros:

For the money, Matt, I'd consider buying a trash pump [Honda engine] since they are only around $500 in Northern Tool. They are useful tools and you never know when you'll want to drain or add water, maybe fill a forage pond in the future, etc. The Honda model I'm looking at right now will do 16,000 GPH or 384,000/day. One acre, one inch deep, is 27,000 gallons. So, that's over 14" [without evaporation] increase daily. Wouldn't take long at that rate.

Cons:
I think pumping that water is illegal without some kind of a permit - although I'm not certain that's important to you.

You have to be concerned with introducing invasive species from the creek to the pond. White perch, carp, bullhead, could conceivably make it through although most fish I've ever seen passed thru a pump looked like they'd been through a blender...it's still a risk.

PS: Just reread Sand County Almanac last month...refreshing.

TJ,

Appreciate the thoughts. Maybe you, Bruce and I should have a "community trash pump". Can we make it run on vegetable oil?

We originally had rights to pump from the creek for irrigation...I think Nebraska's still first in time, first in right so I'm guessing I could make it work legally...but would need to check.

On the invasives, since I haven't stocked anything yet, is there a way to get the water and then treat in some way to kill any invaders that might have gotten through the screen?

First off, YES, I can make ANYTHING run off B100

Secondly, I'm open to a costshare.

Although you and I both know we are due a few 3"+ rains in the next six weeks, and that will probably fill your pond [or come close], why not pump if you have rights and we can have a project to perform over a few totties?

Lastly - if invasive fish make it through the screen and the impellers etc. yes you could theorhetically apply rotenone before you stock it. I want to urge to check with Bruce on this or anyone else on the forum as I have ZERO experience with applying that chemical or practical experience with pumping creek water into a pond.

I think Travis can hop in here and help us think of other cons...I wonder about invasive aquatic vegetation, too. I guarantee someone here has done this with the same goals in mind and has success or horror stories.

Spent yesterday out at the ponds. Thinking even more about pumping water from that creek. I also created a temporary diversion from the road ditch. Ultimately I'm going to want the road runoff to stay out of the pond as I should have plenty of natural drainage for my .5 and 1 acres, but I'll take every last drop I can get right now.

Anyone have experience pumping from a spring fed creek? Good, bad, ugly?

Do you have to worry about water rights there?

I bought a 3 inch semi trash pump off Ebay and some hoses from Northern Tool to start filling my pond. It's a 4 acre pond that's 12 feet deep at one end, but average depth of 6 ft. I added a 20 gallon fuel tank to it and ran it 24/7 for what seems like two months. I don't remember for sure. At first, it ran great and I could see the water level rise every day when I checked on the pump. Then, after a few weeks, it wouldn't be running when I checked on it. I started changing the oil every third day, then every other day, and finally every day. I got it about half full this way, but finally gave up since I couldn't keep the pump working for very long. I did get enough water in it to stock minnows and bluegill, which was my main goal. It's all up to you on what you want to spend and how much time you have to keep it running. A 3 inch pump running non stop will pump a fair amount of water. Enough to make a difference.

Good Luck,
Eddie

I do, but I know they used to irrigate from the creek, so I'm guessing the right still exists. Nebraska is a "first in time, first in right" state and so if we had rights back then, we should still have rights ahead of any new irrigators.

That said, I would definitely have to check on it before I pulled the trigger. Have a couple friends who are water rights attorneys (it's a big business here in Nebraska ).

Right now I'm just trying to figure out if the pros of doing it outway the potential cons.

Treeplanter,

If you pump water in i would feed your outtake hose into a larger rigid drainage pipe lying on the bottom to keep it from gouging up the bottom, swishing around, and stirring up the bottom at first. You may have to weight down the outtake hose with concrete block to hold it in place.

I always do this when refilling my ponds with my well water and I've got a rope tied to the ridge pipe so I can pull it back out.

There are also ways to screen out invasives such as dumping the inflow into a screened box.

Do not know about the law in your area. You need to get that ironed out first. But in Texas any way we can get water has to be considered.

I don't know Nebraska law, but I would definitely recommend checking with one of your friends who practice water law.

A few things I think it would be helpful to mention:

1. It makes sense that NE would have a "first in time, first in right" principle for surface water (SW) use. As a GENERAL rule, states west of the 100th meridian use the prior approrpriations doctrine (first in time, first in right) to govern SW use, while states east of the 100th meridian use riparian rights to control SW use.

2. Under prior approriations, the appropriative rights generally are NOT attached to the land (unlike Riparian rights, which require land ownership). It is a personal right that can be sold or licensed.

3. Under prior approriations, non-use of the water can terminate the appropriative right. Appropriations rules inherently favor use of water (hence first in time...). Most prior appropriations states have statutes that presume abandonment or forfeiture (different legal meanings) after a certain period of non-use. For instance, Texas has a 3-year abandonment statute and a 10-year forfeiture statute.

Basically, if a senior appropriator does not use the water within a given time period, the right to use the water reverts back into the “pool” to be received by the next senior person who has appropriative rights.

4. From my limited knowledge, Nebraska (like Texas) is a hybrid state, and it's laws mostly resemble prior approrpriations. However, the only "pure" PA states are AK, AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, and WY (and all are west of the 100th meridian).

The point of all of this is that the rules governing water use are complicated and state-specific. I would definitely check with someone familiar with Nebraska's water laws.

Davatsa, all good points. Guess I've over-simplified the law a little with my assumptions (yes, I know about assumptions). Think I'll call those friends tomorrow.

Great idea on the outflow pipe and screened box Cecil. If I have the water rights, I think I'll give that a try. We had spotty storms in our area last night. 5 miles to the west got 3.5". We had a meager .5". Amazing. Finishing a pond is a surefire way to start a drought!

Well good news. Checked with the DNR today...a water appropriation was created for our land to irrigate from the creek in 1960. It is still considered active and the right transfers with the land in the state of Nebraska. So as long as I keep track of the amount of water pumped and use the water for a "productive" purpose I'm good to go.

Now to find a pump and build that screen box...

Northern tool has honda pumps that state they can do 16,000 GPH. Let me know if you need help navigating to the site. Harbor Freight up on Cornhusker could also help you out. These pumps are only $300-400. Good investment for you considering you don't have a well and will want to pump from the creek during droughts in years to come.

I know we both have a 3"er coming...we're almost 8" below normal precip for the year.

Cecil - brilliant idea on the screened box. Simple, efficient, and it NEVER would have occured to me.

Great news, treeplanter! That just goes to show that the laws covering the same rights can be very different from state to state.

I'm glad the right still stands and I'm intrigued that it attaches to the land even in a state using prior appropriations.

The Honda pumps work well...we've actually used them to aerate our little BG pond when the FA takes over. We've also used them to pump the water out of a large cement tank. As long as you can get enough hose to run from the creek to the pond, you should be good to go!

I bought one of those pumps to dewater the pond as we were renovating it last year. Tips:

1)You can use 4" pvc pipe (with adapters) to connect a flex hose to the output of the pump and run it as long as you want. Bigger outlet pipe = less restrictin = more flow.
2) I used a 6 gallon outboard motor gas tank instead of the tank on the pump.
3) After the first 8 hr. of run time, I drained the oil and refilled with synthetic oil
4) Use an inner tube and float the intake screen/intake hose to keep from sucking a bunch of sand/junk into the pump.
5)Make sure that you have a solid base to set the vibrating shaking pump on or it might end up in the creek!

I am another fan of Honda pumps. Used one to irrigate over an acre of tomatoes (drip) for over 20 years before a flood submerged it. I could not get it started after draining everything out, letting it dry out for a couple days, and refilling the oil and gas, so I ordered another one from Northern. Before it came in, I took apart the carborator and dried it out completely. It started right up and has been working for over a year. After 20 years it burns a little oil, but what the heck. The new is in the barn, still in the box, as a backup (never added gas). I thought about using the pump to fill a couple shallow ponds/wetlands when we had them built but decided to be patient. Our first pond (something over an acre and 8 to 12 feet deep) filled in one day, 2 weeks after it was finished! Worst flooding we ever had. It was a sight to see it fill at over a foot per hour. The waterfall coming in was spectaular. Not sure how much soil it also added to the bottom of the pond. Good thing this did not happen during construction.

RAH,

I think I get it...

Complete pond (no pump) = No rain
Buy pump = Rain
Buy two pumps = Rain, waterfalls, and pond fills in 1 day



I'm shopping for a pump tonight.

Don't forget to leave the windows open, and the top down if you have a convertible. My wife left the top down on her jeep yesterday and we got another 1.4 inches of rain (She got it in the barn before it got too wet). I hope it rains for you soon!