Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Help possible legal trouble, need advice

i think dave's suspicions are right on...especially if this situation was in CA. coach if as you say you did not change or alter the flow from your property to her property, and yer pond was legally built, and the surface flow feeds a wetlands via yer neighbors property, she might be the one who could get in trouble by having built the berm. it would be worth a check to determine the EPA regs for yer area. out here the federal law often trumps state and other local laws when it comes to affecting "the nations" waterways and wetlands. and it is a can of worms....

another item you could help her realize is a watershed yields only as much water as its size. having a 1/2 acre pond in the middle will not change the amount of water leaving yer spillway and entering her property (assuming the dam was constructed properly and wont fail).

Wow, all of this advice is great! Once again (I say this weekly to my wife), I am so glad I found PB!

there is no other way for us to run the outflow other than over her property (which is where it has flowed for the last 10 years). Ryan, I guess I could run about 400' of pipe across her yard (and through some woods) and have it empty out into the wetland directly, but I can't imagine the cost. What did your 150' pipe cost?

Luckily, we obtained permits when we built the pond, and had the pond and berms designed by a local environmental wetland company. We are not part of a wetland (we checked the designation before building), nor are we connected at any stream or the like. We just had a low spot that collected water. The soil here is full of clay, so surface water sits.

I have contacted a lawyer to help us with some initial discovery. I like the idea of seeing if she would agree to an independent evaluator. She does not trust the company we worked with, because we paid them. there seems to be lots of trust issues.

We contacted her last night via email to see if she wanted to meet out at the property. We could then discuss her and our concerns, and see if we could come up with a plan the we both can agree on. I have not heard back from her yet, but I am hopeful.

Until then, we continue to read about Michigan water law and learn as much as we can. The only blessing in this is that we don't need the water to run out of the overflow until next spring, so we have time.

On a happier note, I got my non trained BG to eat pellets today for the first time. What a rush watching them smack the surface!

I would say that Brian has the situation well under control. I like your entire approach. Well done. Of course, keep us posted so we can all learn.

One other thought. If you do as Jeff says, and I think it is good advice, and meet with her, write everything down after the meeting. Immediately after the meeting.

One other thought. If you do as Jeff says, and I think it is good advice, and meet with her, write everything down after the meeting. Immediately after the meeting. Document, document, document everything.

Dang Guv! Why you gotta say everything twice these days?

...and especially with afterthoughts incorporated into the second coming.

(just trying to up my post count now)

I'm on your heels Sunil, better triple post I'm catching up!

Hi everyone! this is Coach's wife! =)

I've just been reading all the posts and we appreciate all the wisdom you have offered. Thank you!

I've reached out to one of my attorneys (I run a business and have routine interaction and good relationships with several law firms.) and will post some more info when we have a chance to get his views next week for all to contemplate. One thought I had as a result of all the good advice is that it might be a good first step to just write down all the facts as we understand them so that the attorney can give us the best possible perspective. Coach and I will work on that this weekend.

We did not hear back from our neighbor today. We would really like to find a way (without going to court, but while knowing all the options!) to have a amicable relationship with her. Keep the thoughts coming. It is great to have people to talk about this with!

Coach's Wife

She Hijacked my computer!! She uses big words!! That is why she is is so successful.

CoachB, a banked swale can divert a lot of extra rain water!!!

And its not hard to mow...

Good idea. I like to present two documents to attorneys (can be incorporated into one if you prefer). A time line of events as you know them: When you purchased your property, when you received the permit for your pond, when you built your pond, when you had contact with the neighbor regarding the building of the pond, when the neighbor built the berm, etc. And a second document (or as I said it can be interlaced with the first) that describes in detail all of the contact between you and the neighbor regarding the pond issue. Don't sugar coat it, write down all the contact regarding this good or bad (even if you have acted badly, which I'm not saying you did). Print out several copies of the document for the attorney.

Documentation is what I live for. You can't believe the messes I've avoided through documentation.

Please keep us posted.

What little I have learned from the 2+ years I have been in court with a neighbor is;

If your pond causes problems on her property from unnatural water flow, or if her berm causes an unnatural backing up of water, either, or both of you have commited tresspass.

Here are some pictures of what is going on.

This is a shot of the pond. the berm I am standing next to is the south edge of my property and the line of river birches on the left side is her property. The channel with grass at the right side of the picture is the inflow from the woods and field behind me (total acreage about 50 acres). To the left of the pine trees on the far side of the pond is where our exit is. This is where the low spot drained before we built the pond.


Here is a close up of the outflow with the start of her dam.


and a closeup of her work and the route to her pond beyond.


The water would just flow through her grass and under her driveway to her pond, and then out to the wetland.

I hope that clarifies out situation a bit. We have still not heard back from her. I am hoping it was because she was away for he long weekend. My wife tells me not to worry, that we will work through this. This pond is my baby, and I get concerned when someone threatens it.

So, in a nutshell, you inserted your pond in between the drainage and her pond (and, legally, I might add). ...correct?

That is correct. here is an earlier picture of the area before we put our pond in (this is when we bought the property).



You can see in the upper left where the water was leaving the area and flowing across her lot (this was two summers ago).

It was not designated as a wetland (we checked through multiple sources). It just help water for part of the year. It used to be a farm field (10 years ago).

You, sir, have a neighbor with a bad case of sour grapes. Quite frankly, it is every pondmeister's nightmare. No pond owner wants to suffer any level of control of valuable drainage. It is also a classic example to all newbies looking for potential pondsites; make sure nobody can cut you off....or at least, be as sure as possible.
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I wonder if she might have a glimmer of a case for your direct effect on her "pre-existing" water feature...???

If she's getting the same "amount" of flow +/-, and the path hasn't changed due to the pond you built, then it's likely she has very little chance at a case. However, if her use of the berm backs up water on to your land and/or altering normal flow, she could be in for a legal awakening... and possibly a costly bill.

Unfortunately, the amount of water that actually reaches her pond is never "the same" unless Coach's pond is always brim full. I still wonder what legal legs she might have regarding the effect on her water feature.

If you want to build on your land, you need to file a lawsuit now. If you are reasonably smart, you do not need a lawer. I have not been in court a lot, but I also have never lost a case. Your situation is simple. You simply want the water to exit your property as it has in the past. While most posters have advocated a gentler approach, I guess that I disagree. You have a neighbor that does not realize that your pond is both legal and actually an advantage to her, but also built an illegal blockage of drainage from your land. Stupid can't be fixed! Protect your property.

I worded that terribly, sorry. The neighbor appears to be concerned about INCREASED waterflow onto her property (supposedly) from the new pond, which is why she claims to be constructing this berm. Since the water has not actually changed its entry point onto her land due to the new pond construction (same outflow and entry point now as was there pre-pond), and the same amount of "flow" will occur when pond is at full pool (additional watershed does not appear to be funneled into this area due to dam), she really has no legal basis (as far as I can tell).

If this new pond had diverted additional watershed acres onto her property (creating the possibility of flooding or massive washouts for instance), then she'd likely have a strong case. That doesn't appear to be the situation here at all. However, this actually can be a huge issue for others building ponds these days.

This pond isn't really a dam, but this is probably worth mentioning. A dam can potentially combine several watershed areas that USED to have unique and seperate surface drainage paths carved out (storm creeks, typical surface run off, field drain tile, man-made ditches and canals, etc.) that were relatively safe and effective before the dam, and instead end up concentrating them into one raging and highly dangerous RIVER during a rain event. A pond/dam isn't ALWAYS a buffer. This could lead into this lady's fear of the new pond, but as I said, that just simply doesn't appear to be a risk here at all.

Now when it comes to this neighbor backing up water on your land (aka flooding your land), you've likely got an extremely strong case against her, UNLESS there is an existing agreement between you two that allows such a thing and outlines it quite specifically.

I would go the route of trying to get a friendly understanding between each other first. The berm isn't acceptable to you. Say it exactly like that, and explain why that's the case. Be nice. Don't fight with her even if she refuses to yield. If need be, let the lawyers do that. It will likely take just one well worded letter from your lawyer to get things corrected.

I'm with ya, Weissguy. I mis-read the entire issue faced by Coach and the complaints by the neighbor. I reached the conclusion that the complaint (by the neighbor) was the new management of drainage that feeds her pond. My bad.

I fail to see any use of logic by someone who is afraid of a dam causing more water to enter their property that responds by building another dam below the first one. What the heck does she think will happen when the water reaches her berm, backs up, and breeches it?

Some people, you can't tell anything. Except "See you in court."

I must admit that one of my solution strategies was to just let the spring rains blow her dam up and wash it away, But I am sure that she would find this as evidence that I am flooding her lot further.

We are going to wait a little while longer to see if she responds to our communication attempts. We have started preliminary talks with a lawyer. it pains me that we can't just sit down and hash it out.