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#164451 - 05/20/09 08:43 AM Feed price vs. content questions
Ryan Freeze Offline
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Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 1285
Loc: Southwest Ohio
I'm buying AM 400 and Aquamax LM. My guy stocks Aquamax 400 and it's 45% protein 16% fat and runs $35.75/bag. The Aquamax LM is 45% protein and 10% fat, costs $26/bag and has to be ordered. GFC has to be ordered and costs $22/bag.

The following lists price per pound of protein contained in the feeds listed above:

Aquamax LM: $1.44
Gamefish Chow: $1.38
Aquamax 400: $1.59
(cost per bag/(Pounds of feed x % protein))

If my math is right Aquamax LM seems like a really good value compared to the other feeds listed. It seems strange that the Aquamax LM is more than 25% cheaper per pound of protein than the other two though. Are bigger pellets cheaper to make? am I missing something? Is my guy just giving me a really good price on the Aquamax LM or overcharging for the 400?



Edited by Ryan Freeze (05/20/09 09:06 AM)
Edit Reason: changed to reflect 40lb AM LM per bag
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#164454 - 05/20/09 08:54 AM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: Ryan Freeze]
Theo Gallus Offline
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Registered: 05/14/04
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Loc: Central Ohio
I don't know if this is the same everywhere, but my local mill sells me GFC and AM500/600 in 50 pound bags and AM Largemouth in 40 pound bags. The Largemouth price/bag that seemed really low before I noticed that is still good, but no longer quite so awesome.
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#164456 - 05/20/09 09:06 AM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: Theo Gallus]
Ryan Freeze Offline
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I thought they were 40lb bags but couldn't remember. It makes sense, bigger pellets will have a lower density in a bag kinda like the difference in weight between a wagon full of popcorn kernel vs. regular corn. I'm modifying my post to reflect the weight difference but LM is still cheaper than 400.
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#164467 - 05/20/09 09:41 AM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: Ryan Freeze]
ewest Offline
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Costs 5-1-09 :

GFC - $18.25

AM 500 - $29.15

LM - not priced
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#164515 - 05/20/09 01:59 PM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: ewest]
dave in el dorado ca Offline
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IIRC, AQ grower 400, 500, 600 all run about $36/50lb bag here.
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#164562 - 05/20/09 06:13 PM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: dave in el dorado ca]
Theo Gallus Offline
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Loc: Central Ohio
AM 600 w $34.95 today, AM Largemouth ws $26.95 earlier in the month.
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#164619 - 05/21/09 07:43 AM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: Theo Gallus]
Greg Grimes Offline
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ryan it is not tht simple. As Dr. Griffin explained to me, the source of the protein makes a huge diff in growth and palatibility. In other words he said (paraphrasing and hope close to the truth)he could make a 40% proetine pellet from chicken feathers but it would be some very poor growth. I was arguing using x brand 36% protein vs gfc 32% protein. I do not think he was just towing the purina company line. I felt after the conversation the gfc was slightly better than 36% to spite it being lower in protein due to the protein source, lipids, other items, etc.

however it has been a tough sell to clients coming to buy fish food from us. The diff is slight so I honestly now have southern states little strike in stock here. I tell clients if buying from store ask for GFC or 36% protein vs, cheaper x brand 32% protein I do feel that it is much better if feeding bluegill as target.
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#164640 - 05/21/09 10:47 AM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: Greg Grimes]
ewest Offline
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It has been shown in study after study that fish like BG , LMB , HSB etc in pond type environs do best when they get fish based protein/lipids (fish meal/oil)rather than other types especially plant based protein. For grazing fish like CC , tilapia , GC , GShiners the source is not so important.

I have found also that BG ect more readily eat pellets containing fish products. Plus the more you rely on pellets (aggressive feeding program) the more important this difference makes. So check the contents before you buy.

Here are a few bits of info.

However, the use of low-protein

diets has several complications. Such diets generally

contain high levels of carbohydrates, which

are often poorly utilized by fish (Wilson 1994) and

add to the quantity of undigested material entering

the culture system.



Physiologically, fish are affected

by variations in water temperature in two

ways (Hochachka and Somero 1984). First, temperature

determines the rate of chemical reactions,

and secondly, temperature dictates the point of

equilibrium between the formation and disruption

of the macromolecular structures in biological

membranes. Structural flexibility, therefore, is a

requirement for integrity of biological membranes

(Hazel 1993).

As environmental

temperatures decrease, the invariable response is

an increase in fatty acid unsaturation (Johnston and

Roots 1964; Caldwell and Vernberg 1970; Hazel

1979; Cossins and Prosser 1982). Conversely, as

ambient temperatures increase, phospholipid saturation

must also increase to avoid excess fluidity.

The dynamics of lipid composition of cells occurs

in order to maintain a constant fluid matrix for

enzymes associated with membranes (Greene and

Selivonchick 1990). Different species of fish differ

in their patterns of fat deposition and mobilization,

which in turn affects the temperature range in

which the species can grow and survive.



Diets influence the fatty acid composition in several

species of fish (Henderson and Tocher 1987;

Lovell 1989; Seo et al. 1994), and the ability of a

fish to alter its lipid composition ...is one factor that determines survival

In these fish, the fat

apparently hardens in the colder water, causing the

fat-impregnated muscles to stiffen and the fish to

become exhausted and lose movement.
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#164667 - 05/21/09 01:18 PM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: ewest]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
I know of a place that sells high protein fish food at a dirt cheap price. It is so cheap that I won't feed it.
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#164669 - 05/21/09 01:29 PM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: Dave Davidson1]
Greg Grimes Offline
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Ewest you wrote "So check the contents before you buy."

Even this is difficult. The contents on the bag we sell is praticaly the same as GFC. It does not breakdown where the animal protein comes from, fish, chicken, etc. I know lots of reaserch is being done to test differ lipids sources from vegetable source to keep cost down.

I think the only real way to tell is testing each product side by sid and see which produces superior growth results. Until this is done I do not see how a consumer can tell by reading a bag.

Yes Dave there is one out there that is 41% protein but does not smell like fish at all and the fish have low desire to eat it. I told client quit using; switched to 32% protein GFC and fish hammer it.
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#164693 - 05/21/09 04:03 PM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: Greg Grimes]
Ryan Freeze Offline
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Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 1285
Loc: Southwest Ohio
Greg, are you suggesting that Purina is using different protein sources between Aquamax Largemouth and Aquamax Grower 400?

I'm just comparing Purina products trying to keep things simple. Mainly, my question is why is Aquamax largemouth 10% cheaper per pound than Aquamax 400 when the tags show similar content? It seems there would be much less demand for Aquamax Largemouth than Grower 400. Less volume of product moved usually means a higher cost per unit (unless demand is exceeding production which probably isn't the case here). In addition, stock retail items are usually cheaper than specail order. My guy stocks Grower 400 but not Aquamax Largemouth.
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#164694 - 05/21/09 04:29 PM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: Ryan Freeze]
Greg Grimes Offline
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No not suggesting that. More of quesitons of source of protein from lesser value products, i.e. purina competetion. I will see if I have Mark Griffin's email to see if he has time to chime in on this discussion. Nice to hear it from horses mouth rather than guessing about price of the two purina products. Good point. I'm guessng it is from, no never mind not saying I will see if I can get him to respond.
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#164695 - 05/21/09 04:30 PM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: Ryan Freeze]
Theo Gallus Offline
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Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 12364
Loc: Central Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Ryan Freeze
Mainly, my question is why is Aquamax largemouth 10% cheaper per pound than Aquamax 400 when the tags show similar content?

Did we already mention the "It comes in a plain brown bag" theory? (Lower packaging and marketing cost???)
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#164760 - 05/22/09 06:40 AM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: Theo Gallus]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13356
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
It is my understanding that Purina/Aquamax predator feed is from mixing in some mashed up menhaden for predators chow and soy alone (with binders) for the 32% GFC.
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It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP

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#164762 - 05/22/09 07:07 AM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: Dave Davidson1]
Greg Grimes Offline
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From Mark Griffin:

Just looked at it- there are two issues- bag size- looks like the folks got that- so the difference per pound is not that great.
Second is fat content. 5D04 has 6 percent more fat- that is fish oil. Fish oil hit an all time record last year (as did most oils) and was about $1700 a ton- fish meal was around $900-1100. So, we had some extremely expensive fish oil to get through. At one point, people thought we would run out of the world's supply of fish oil. Then, the economy started south and the commodities corrected and the Chilean salmon industry hit the skids as they are suffering through disease issues.
Now, new crop fish is just coming in and the price of oil is down below a grand a ton again, so, fish feed prices (that are fish based) have come down also.
Having said all that, a 45/16 will always be more expensive than a 45/10 as fish oil is always expensive (compared to grains).


Promise I was going to guess that.
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#164765 - 05/22/09 07:58 AM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: Greg Grimes]
Ryan Freeze Offline
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Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 1285
Loc: Southwest Ohio
Thanks for checking it out. That makes sense. I had no idea fish oil was so valuable. There is noticeably more in the 400, my daughter holds up her little hands and says "ewww...stinky" after feeding the 400.
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#164788 - 05/22/09 09:32 AM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: Ryan Freeze]
CJBS2003 Offline
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Posts: 10457
Loc: northern VA
Hard to believe that the menhaden they catch off the shore within view of my dad's house ends up in the bags of AM and GFC going out all over the country! Menhaden are the fish we use to chum for stripers and blues in the Bay when fishing and they also make great bait. They are basically over grown tshad from the saltwater. It is pretty cool watching the menhaden boats work. They have a plain that flies around looking for schools of fish. Then the boats come up, drop their nets and trap the school. Reedville, VA is where their home port is. It is the #1 port on the east coast for pounds of fish caught and almost all of it is menhaden! They make all kinds of products with the fish and the oil...
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#164838 - 05/22/09 02:27 PM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: CJBS2003]
george1 Offline
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Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 3794
Loc: Plano Texas
First chance to check feed invoices:

Previous AXMX 600 cost … $3O.OO/50#

Began AQMX 500/600 mix:
04-10-09 …
500 … $26.17
600 … $30.00

04-20-09
500 … $26.18
600 … $2749

Don’t know why AQMX 500 is lower cost than 600 but I’ll take it!!!!
Price drop may be lowered fish oil price?
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#164848 - 05/22/09 03:36 PM Re: Feed price vs. content questions [Re: george1]
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
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I thought I would copy and paste this from Doc Griffin from this thread on fish feeds. http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=117414&fpart=1


Typical BG food




Catfish feed






MEG

Feather meal as a fish food protein source. There are two primary factors of protein quality for monogastrics (fish for this discussion) - 1) Amino Acid profile and 2) Amino Acid availability. The amino acid profile of feather looks pretty good if you look at the Total Sulfur Amino Acid content. It has a high content of cystine - a sulfur amino acid (SAA). SAAs can be limiting in monogastric diets and tend to be expensive to formulate into diets (they are relatively low in many inexpensive plant proteins). Unfortunately, the reason it is so high is because feather is a structural protein. The di-sulfide bonds between two cysteines make the protein very tough. This is what gives the keratins their structural rigidity - like our hair and fingernails. Unfortunately, this serves to make them very hard to digest. Therefore, as a rule, the availability is not so good. To increase the availability, feather meal is often hydrolyzed, this is an attempot to break down the disulfide bonds to increase availability. Shoe leather analyzes at 85% crude protein, but it is not digestible.

A word on protein sources.... Most protein sources are available in different qualities. This is particularly true for the expensive animal proteins - fish meal, poultry meals, blood meals, etc. Quality and freshness of the raw materials and the processing are factors that result in this variability. As examples:
A) Quality of Raw Materials: Meat meals are often priced on protein content - simply put, it is the ratio of bone (ash) to meat (protein). Bones (minerals, ash) are not as valuable as protein.
B) Freshness of Raw Materials: The US commercial fishing fleet for menhaden now has all refrigerated vessel storage.... the season is in over the summer, primarily in the Gulf of Mexico. Obviously, if it is not refrigerated....
c) Processing: Blood has a good amino acid profile. If it is drum-dried (essentially scorched on a extremely hot steel drum) it has poor availability and is a fairly poor ingredient. If it has been spray dried under low heat - it is an excellent ingredient.

High quality fish meal is the gold standard - it has the best Amino acid profile for fish (fish protein to grow fish protein)and is highly digestible. Further, it tastes great to fish (fish meal based diets are much more palatable to carnivorous fish) and it contains about 10% fish oil (high in omega 3 polyunsaturated fatty acids). Many other proteins can be used as long as they are formulated properly into an overall dietary amino acid profile.

Holler if you have questions. MEG

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ewest

Doc G can you give us some guidance on lipids (in pellets and or forage fish) as a necessary part of what carnivorous warm water fish (BG, LMB and HSB) need for winter survival ? Do most of them come from the fish meal (or fish oil in live forage) or elsewhere ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MEG


Well, today I see that Yahoo has a story on the importance of omega 3 fatty acids for us humans. For most of us, the source is fish - salmon, tuna, sardines, etc. I have not seen the data - but, for winter survival, the idea is that fish oil is a fluid. This enhance membrane fluidity. This is often cited as a reason for the role of PUFAs with brain function/development. When the water gets cold, the fish get cold. Therefore, it stands to reason that these fats benefit the animals in cold conditions. If the overall fatty acid profile has too much saturated fat, their fat reserves will solidify in cold water - like tallow in cold water. These PUFAs are important in many other aspects besides the physical properties....

Predatory fish get these fats from the smaller fish they consume. They do not synthesize the long chain PUFAs. The source is from algae and these fats are passed on to algae-eating zooplankton and fish and move up the food chain. Menhaden are excellent sources of the omega 3 PUFAs, because they are fatty fish and about 25% of their fatty acids are the long chain PUFAs. So, in a prepared diet, you need either a significant amount of certain marine algaes, or fish oil or meal (approximately 10% of fish meal is fish oil - as a side note... this is because fish meal is mechanically expressed, so it does not get all the fat out. In solvent-extracted meals - such as soybean meal - there is vurtually no fat left).
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