Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Will I have a "balanced" pond?

Hi everybody. This is my first post. We have a 3 acre pond in central Virginia. In the fall of 2007, we stocked it with 1200 Hybrid Bluegill, 550 Redear Sunfish, 300 Channel Catfish and 200 Largemoth Bass (plus about 15 pounds of Fathead Minnows). I didn't discover this forum until after stocking and I am sure I made lots of mistakes. For instance, it appears that HBG's do not have a great reputation here as part of a "balanced" fishery. My goals for the pond are to have lots of bluegills and sunnies for the the kids to catch and some good bass fishing for me and my father. Can I achieve those goals with this mix of fish? For what it's worth, We just started fishing this spring, and so far it seems to be doing pretty well. The kids have caught many HBG's and RE's on worms, and they have hooked the occassional CC. All seem healthy. We caught our first bass this weekend -- about 14" and seemingly plump and fine. I'm most worried about whether the HBG's messed up my forage base. Any watch outs or advice on that point -- or anything else I should be thinking about? Many thanks!

Howdy, Marc, and welcome to the Forum!

Lots of us made mistakes BPB (before Pond Boss). I still manage to make some APB as well.

Short term, the bass have been growing on the offspring from those 15 pounds of FHM, the RES, and what relatively small numbers the HBG produce. Assuming the LMB were small fingerlings at stocking and 14" is one of the larger ones, not the smaller, they should spawn this year. Long term, many more bass will be vying for eats from a forage base that will probably be devoid of FHM shortly (if not already).

If you add adult BG in sufficient numbers to the pond ASAP, you can start catching the forage base up to what the bass will need to be managed for a balanced fishery. If not, you're going to have a lot of skinny bass in a year or so.

Thanks, Theo!

Adding regular BG's makes a lot of sense. What would you recommend in terms of when to add them, what size (fingerlings --or do they need to be bigger?), and quantities?

Thanks again!

You'll need them big enough to be safe from 14" bass. I would want 5"-6" minimum, bigger if possible.

I would want at least 150, up to 300 if the budget allows. If the Spring stocking season is still ongoing, get 'em in now and they'll spawn this year.

MarcN, where in central VA are you? I am probably a bit north of you in Stafford... Welcome to Pond Boss! It's good to have another Virginian in here! The good news is you didn't over stock your bass, so you should be able to get BG to take hold... Where did you source your original stockers for your pond?

Theo is correct, the addition of adult BG will get your bluegill population up and going. HBG will die off in a few years and you will be left with some F2 fish, and perhaps even more unusual hybrids like BGxHBGxBG where you have a fish that is 1/4 GSF and 3/4 BG. This shouldn't be too much of a detriment though. Your BG will mostly spawn with other BG and their ability to spawn in high numbers mean they will soon be outnumbering all your other sunfish and lead to a good forage base for your bass.

CJBS, Thanks for the welcome! My father has some land in Fluvanna County -- essentially half way between Richmond and Charlottesville. He's had it for 40+ years but has just started doing stuff with it (like building ponds) in the last couple years -- and I've had fun helping him.

Thanks also for your insight. We got our original stockers from an outfit called Fishwagon, which I think is out of Arkansas, but they came through the area with their truck. I'm not sure what their reputation is, but I found their name on the Virginia DGIF web site. The fact that they recommended the HBG should probably be an indication though, huh?

Do you have any idea where I might be able to get adult BG, or how much adults might cost? I'm glad to hear the HBG mistake might not be "fatal" and that we should be able to rebuild a decent forgage base. Thanks again!

Fluvanna County is some pretty country! How far are you from the Winter Haven Game Farm & Preserve? It too is also in Fluvanna County. My black lab just turned 1 year old yesterday and I have been considering taking her there. What company did your father contract out with to build the pond, or did you do the work yourself? If you have photos of the pond, post them on here... We all love to see photos!

The initial HBG stocking will put your pond at a bit of a disadvantage but you can work through it... 3 acres is a good amount of water and larger than most ponds. It will take a bit longer to do the conversion to pure BG because of it, but in the end you will really be able to grow some nice fish.

Unfortunately, we aren't in an area that's chock full of fish farms like north east Texas... So the options are a bit narrower.

The closest farm to you is probably:

Ashton Mills Farm
229 Shadow Brook Lane
Winchester, VA 22603
(540) 888-3259

Another option in VA is:

Perry Minnow Farm
13510 Windsor Boulevard
Windsor, VA 23487
(757) 539-1709

I have no experience with either of them though.

Other hatcheries that are within a reasonable distance for transport are:

http://zettsfishhatchery.com/index.html West Virginia near Winchester, VA Catmandoo on here has dealt with them and has good experiences.
http://www.midatlanticstocking.com/ in Keymar, MD
http://fosterlake.com/new_site/index.php In NC but I believe they will truck haul fish to VA.
http://agmap.psu.edu/Businesses/3075 Keystone Aquaculture in PA. Sunil on the forum deals with them and has had good things to say. If anyone can get you what you are looking for, the owner John maybe the guy...

With 14" bass in the pond, we'll play it safe and say they're probably approaching 15"... Bass can eat sunfish up to about 1/3 their size. That would put anything 5" and under at risk. 6" bluegills aren't gonna be cheap though and may actually be hard to come by.

http://jonesfish.com/default.asp It is in OH, but does ship fish, the challenge will be if they can successfully ship such large sized BG to you. According to their website, they have 6"-8" BG for $3.70 each to give you an idea what the fish will run.

I would say 200-250 BG would be ideal, but at least 100 should be stocked... That's anywhere from $370 to $925 to stock the 6" plus adult fish.

I hope we can help you out more. Any other questions, post away! If you haven't subscribed, consider subscribing to Pond Boss. It really does have great articles and lots of good resources. Also, check into several of the books offered for sale on the website as well...

Wow! Thanks for all the great information. It looks like our land is about 10 miles or so from the hunting preserve you mentioned in your post. We are North of there -- closer to I64. I actually live in Richmond so I don't know my way around Fluvanna too well. In terms of who built the pond, a woman named Shawna Shade did the plans and engineering site work (she used to work with a fellow named Joseph Scales for years who apparently was the "dean" of pond building in this area before he retired) and a gentleman named Bobby Baker did the excavating. I will try to figure out how to get some pictures of the ponds up.

Thanks for the hatchery information. I have spoken with Perry Minnow Farm and they only have fingerlings. I will check with the folks in WInchester and see what they have. Question: Would it work to stock a lot of fingerlings (1000 or so?) with the knowledge that the majority will just be bass feed but the hope that a sustainable population will survive?

Oh -- and on the subscription front, I gave my dad a gift subscription last year which he loved!

Thanks again for all the great insight on this forum!

You could certainly stock 1000 smaller BG and hope they all don't become bass food before they get enough size on them to spawn. Obviously, the bigger the BG the better...

Give Zett's a call, they usually have a good selection of sunfish and might have larger BG available. Wouldn't be too long a drive that you could pick them up yourself. They are just off I-81 in WV...

I will check Zett's out. Thanks.

I checked out Zett's and they are really cool. Their on line catalog is a fun read if anybody is interested: http://zettsfishhatchery.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/CompleteCatalog.pdf Unfortunately, they just stopped selling large BG's (5" - 9") for the season. They will start selling them again in the fall.

So my question now is, when will my bass start suffering from lack of food? This is, when do you think the bass will have eaten all the FHM and begin to feel the impact of not having any (or many) new BG spawn to eat (since I stocked HBG and they don't reproduce much)? Could I wait until the fall when I can get my hands on some adult BG, or do I need to do something now to help the bass get through the summer and avoid stunting?

Thanks in advance!

Your pond is still young and is far from bass crowded, so I think you'll be safe to wait until fall to stock the larger BG. You can always put in some FHM or even some GSH to tide them over til then... With the size your bass are getting to, the GSH may help feed them a little better if you get a large sized fish. Say 3"-5" feeders.

Any thoughts on how many FHM vs. larger GSH I should go with?

Also, if I decide to try the alternate route of stocking a huge number of fingerling BG's knowing there will be high mort rates but trying to get 300 (or whatever the right # is) to make it to spawning age, how many fingerlings would you recommend I stock? Would this strategy be helped by also putting in some FHM or GSH to occupy the bass and help the little BG's make it through?

Thanks again so much for the help ensuring my bass thrive. This forum is really helpful and all the advice is very appreciated.

If you go the FHM route I would stock as many pounds as you can afford. GSH are a better option IMO. I would go with 5 lbs per acre, so about 15 lbs. Try to get larger 4"+ GSH if possible...

I would stock at 3 times the number of 6" BG, so I would say at least 600 smaller BG if you go that route.

Yes, stocking FHM or GSH will take the pressure off your BG and give them a better chance of getting established in your pond...

As CJ says that will help. Yes you can sub some small BG for the adults it just takes more. Standard stocking #s for adding intermeiate size (4-5 inch)BG to a pond with adult LMB is 100 per acre. I would stock the FH and GShiners as CJ said and add 1000 small 2 inch BG. Out of those small BG you may get a 10% survival to 5 inches by winter. That would go a long way toward helping. I would in addition place my order for 200 5 inch BG for fall.

Remember Marc, it all comes down to money... Just about anything can be fixed, just depends on how much you wanna or can spend!

A wise observation CJ. Cost is a major factor to be considered. We can consider other other options if the ones above can't happen. The proverbial plan 2.

Doesn't it always seem to come down to that....Some of these bigger fish do seem to add up quickly I am finding out -- especially if shipping or delivery is required. I am going to think through a couple plans and then run my ideas back by the forum.

One quick questions -- are Rosey Reds a suitable substitution for FHM? Any alarming differences that would scare me away from Rosey Reds?

Thanks!

Yes, adult sized fish can be expensive to stock. You can also consider catching BG from the wild, but there is a lot of risk involved with that including disease and parasite introduction... Plus the simple hassle of trying to catch 100 plus BG that are healthy and safely getting them back to your pond.

Rosy Reds are the same species as FHM, they are just a genetic color morph. So there is no alarming difference between the two except the color. You will often see the wild color form mixed in when you purchase rosy reds.

OK, here's my plan. The first part is pretty straight forward. I'm planning on getting about 600 fingerling BG and 3,000 Rosey Red Minnows. My hope is that the Rosey Reds will keep the bass busy and allow for higher survival rates to spawning age for the BG's. Thoughts on that plan? Any guess as to what kind of survival rates I might see with the BG's?

The second part is a little different. We have another pond which was also built around 2 years ago. It initially filled well, but then seemed to spring a leak and has never filled much more than 1/3 of the way. My guess is that it is between 4 and 6 feet at the deepest and the total water surface area is a bit less than 1/2 acre (it was planned to be 1 1/2 acres). We've never stocked it and have just been waiting to see if it might fill up more. It seems to have a pretty good flow of water in, so my guess is that O2 levels are OK. What I'm thinking is that I will add about 200 BG's and another 1,000 Rosey Reds to that pond. The goal is to grow the BG's to a suitable length and then transfer them to the established pond. Plus, I'll have a little minnow farm on the side -- if the Rosey Reds are good reproducers I'll be able to dip in there anytime I need bait or want to give the bass an extra snack.

A couple questions on this part. Do you think it will work? If so, how long might it take for the BG's to go from 2" fingerlings to the 5" or so I'll need to feel safe about putting them in the established pond? Any advice on steps I can take to increase my chances for success?

I think it could be kind of fun to run my own little fishery operation like this. Plus, it could help me avoid the prices of stocking adult fish. Thoughts?

I've been doing that for years. Just remember to keep seining. The forage does a full time job of reproducing and can overspawn. I generally have a DO crash about every August when I have trouble getting a sucker to pull the other end of the seine. You will have a continuous protein supply for the larger pond.

Is there a minimum depth that the pond needs to maintain in order to support the BG's and Rosey Reds? While I think it is usually at least 4' deep or so at the deepest, I haven't spent that much time monitoring it. It's possible in the heat of summer it could be somehwat less than that.