Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Muddy water Still turbid, what do I do know?

My 5 yr old pond has had suspended clay problems from day one. No runoff; rain or wellwater only, chemistry great with pH of 8.2 or slightly higher. I cleared it the first 2 years by starting a bloom. Now I have FA and chara and I don't want to feed that stuff so I tried aluminum sulfate. Visibility is about 6", not enough to start a natural bloom. Winter weather kept things churned up this year.
I did the 5g bucket test. 1 acre pond average depth 5 feet, I cleared the bucket with about 0.4 grams and pH dropped to 7.6. I couldn't find a definition of Moderate or Severe turbidity so I used the TAMU chart and decided on 150 lbs, just to be safe. I just want enough clearing to get a bloom, then it takes care of itself.
I sprayed the 150 pounds over the pond, aerator off. The milky streaks lasted about 15 minutes, no evidence of floc. Waited 3 days, nothing different. pH is still 8.2
Questions: Have I lost the alum I applied? Should I start over? If not, what increments should I apply additional alum in so as not cause a pH crash? How long after you apply can you take a valid pH reading? I apologize in advance if I have offended our moderator(s) by starting a new thread on this already lengthy topic.

Your pH is high enough that you shouldn't have to worry. In fact, if your pond is near full, it may begin to clear as the water level drops.

Great questions - I am looking forward to the responses.

DKFarms, I've never cleared a pond with less than 50 lbs of alum per acre foot. You'll have a maybe a slight residual amount, but I assure you some flocculation occured and the alum is now on the ponds bottom locked up.

I would suggest 400 pounds alum and 200 lbs Hydrated lime. Trying to "Partially" clear the pond is not a good idea as you want to establish water that is positively charge rather than neutral or new particles entering will easily suspend again.

Remember to spray amounts in relation to depth, ie 50 gallons over 10 foot depth versus 5 gallons over 1 foot depth.

Thanks for the suggestions. Is it safe to assume that every time you add alum there will be some flocking and all the alum will be bound up, even if there is no apparent clearing? If that's the case, could one add alum, providing there is no additional clay input, in increments to clear the water gradually? That's the way it looked like it was working when I did the 5g bucket test. I know you said it's best to clear it up and build up a positive charge in the water, but today I saw the first signs of Chara and when the sunlight hits that stuff, it goes crazy. I put a little herbicide on it in places to keep it from overgrowing during the summer but still maintaining some vegetation for the smaller fish. After the bloom starts in my pond, it clears up nicely, 18" to 24", and stays that way till winter. I just need to clear enough to get the bloom going and to get the fish biting again. I'll go order some more alum Monday. Thanks again for the input, I truly appreciate it. One day maybe I'll be smart enough to give somebody else some advice on this pond stuff.

DK, I'm not positive what will happen with the Chara, but the alum binds up and removes all the phosphorus in the water so the plants can not use it to grow.

I tried the TAMU test again with 5 gallon buckets. And again, the test results, according to the chart, say 150 to 200 lbs. I bought another 200 lbs to apply. I'll get to it sometime in the next couple weeks in between last soybean plantings and first hay cuttings. I know I need to do something quick because my LMB are super skinny I assume from not being able to see things to eat. The rogue Bream are full of eggs but should have spawned already. Don't know if the turbidity has something to do with that or not. I'll keep ya'll posted.

Keep in mind that the bucket test is the MINIMUN amount to use. I'd go with 3-400 lbs.

Here's my experience. The bottle tests showed I needed approx a ton of gypsum to clear up my very turbid 1.8 acre pond (2-3 " visibility). I added over 2 tons this spring (over about 6 weeks) with very little to show for it. We had heavy rains over the course of the spring which certainly didn't help me. I talked it over with Clint at Overton and he told me it might take as much as 8 tons. I was putting the gypsum in 1 shovel full at a time in my trolling motor propowash and it was the expensive powedered variety ($10 for a 40# bag but more surface area should be better) so I was pretty discouraged.

The rain slowed way down. I was adding a couple bags of gypsum a day after work and suddenly the pond started to clear. Over the course of a week I went from 4" to 22" of visibility. I also note that there is a similar sized pond downstream of mine that catches the overflow off my pond. That pond cleared first and has 30+" of visibility now. I have fertilized my pond and I am trying to keep it at about 18" of visibility.

One other note. If your LMB are feed trained they will eat even in muddy water. It's not as good as them being able to see their prey but it's probably better than nothing.

I have noticed the LMB are getting much, much fatter and beating the CC to the feed since the water cleared. I hav elots of BG, GSF, and a handful of tilapia as well.

Soft rain water, especially directly from the sky, is the worst for keeping clay in suspension. I wasted a bunch of alum and hydrated lime. I would add it, the water would clear, then the rain would wash my nice treated water over the dam. I gave up until my pond is down 1.5-2', but that may never happen here.

LMB can catch prey on moonless nights in murky water, so the muddy water is probably not the only reason they're skinny.

bobad,

Is there a difference in long term abiity of different coagulants to help keep a turbid pond clear? I am under the possibly false impression that gypsum lays on the bottom and helps control the suspended clay going forward. I'm not saying excess gypsum laying on the bottom will keep the pond clear, just that it adds some concentration of positively charged particles to the mix and will help you control the suspended clay with less addition required going forward than the original application. Perhaps it's just wishful thinking.

Not sure if alum works similarly or not although I suspect it does, I was too afraid of the pH swings to try alum.

halfastro, You know I've been wondering the same thing. It's a great question! I've been told that clearing ponds in area's that have say a lot of red clay is only a temporary remedy. That it will have to be repeated every year or so no matter how much grassy shoreline you have and even though there is not a large amount of clayee run-off going in your pond. Maybe someone here has had lots of experience with different ponds to give us some good info on what to expect...du

Update. Finally got around to putting another 200 lbs. of aluminum sulfate in the pond 2 days ago. Visibility went from 6 inches to 24 inches in about 10 hours and seems to be holding there. The pH started off at 8.2 and barely dropped to 8 when I checked today. The pond has that familiar green color again and I saw one of my skinny bass jump out of the water to try and catch a dragonfly this evening, so it must be getting easier for them to see. Response to feeding seems slightly better or maybe I'm wishful thinking. I turned the aerators back on tonight and started the water well since the pond is about 6 inches low. We'll see if either of those activities mucks up the water again. I'll update later this week. I'm going to buy my bass 5 pounds of fathead minnows for a treat.

Sorry I missed your post.

I don't think it matters which chemical is used as long as you use sufficient quantities. (And watch your pH)

Spreading an insufficient amount of chemicals can clear up water instantly but temporary. When a sufficient amount of chemicals are dissolved in the water, it will permanently clear it up. Permanently that is, until you get a lot of rain and lose your expensive treated water over the dam.

Alum is the easiest to dissolve of the common remedies. You can pour a pile of it in a corner of the pond, and it can be detected in the far corner 1000 feet away within an hour or 2. Gypsum dissolves more slowly, and needs spreading.

I've seen ponds that have such a high chemical load that you can stir up mud on the bottom, and watch it settle perfectly clear before your eyes. Water like that is usually the result of evaporation during a long dry spell, which concentrates the chemical load.

Update. The pond seems to be holding at 18 to 19 inches visibility with a 6" secchi disk. Aerators are now running 24/7 again. Fish activity seems to be picking up at the feed ring. I can see a few bass stalking the edge of the pond now. I threw in 2 sacks of crawfish for them to feast on yesterday. The greenish color sure is a whole lot more pleasing to look at than the milky white it had turned. I'll wait another week to see if the bloom gets better and maybe I'll fertilize a little. pH is still 8.0 or thereabouts.

Bobad, in your last post, did I understand you to infer that you put alum in a pile in your pond? Does that work? It would sure beat the heck out of the gyrations I have to go through to get the stuff sprayed on the water.

dkfarms. It sounds like you got some phytoplankton forming with the greensih color; that is good. Not sure about what bobad means but alum piled up is very insufficeint the more you have in solution the better you have a chacne to "grab" suspended charged particle and floc it out. Makes me nervous you might have a fish kill later if some left around on pond bottom.

Yes.

I dumped it into a pile in a shallow corner of my pond (where there are no fish), and it dissolved within an hour or 2. Flocculation occurred all over the pond. Unlike gypsum, alum dissolves exactly like salt or sugar. If your pond has suspended negatively charged clay particles, the positively charged alum diffuses chemically. Remember your chemistry lesson where a drop of skunk odor permeates a large room within 10 seconds? Alum works the same way. You couldn't stop it from diffusing quickly if you tried, assuming the water is not already saturated with chemicals. Try it in a wide pan of muddy water. A pinch of alum in one corner will settle the clay in the entire pan.

The only advantage I know to spreading alum vs. dumping it is that it works quicker. Spreading it, it takes 2 minutes. Dumping it, it takes 2 hours.

bobad now you got me thinking this is far easier than mixing it in solution. I will have to do some research b/c your method is very different than all recommendations. I'm not worried about time it takes just clearing the pond. Also how do you add hydrated lime if it works slowly?

bobad, I know your method is working for you but for the life of me it sure defies all the science of Alum's chemical properties and actions.

Bobad,

I am tried your method in a pond today and will let everyone know the results tomorrow.

With all my supplies sitting in the garage waiting to be applied, I'm also very interested.
I do agree with Rainman, it seems to defy logic. How it could dissapate effectively/evenly accross that much surface area. Doesn't exactly work on the same principals of pouring in a gallon of pond dye.


Jeff-

Actually, it does.

Works the same way as dissolving salt, sugar, or alum. The particles are much larger in dye, but they are held in suspension by their molecular charge.

You can put a spoon of salt in 1 end of a long, skinny pan of water, and it soon dissolves. The entire pan of water will very soon be equally salty. You couldn't stop the process if you tried. In all fairness, stirring the pan of water will cause the salt to thoroughly dissolve in a minute instead of an hour if you're in a hurry.

Getting a little technical, molecular diffusion and Fick's law are the reason salt, sugar, and alum dissolve so readily.

Soluble substances quickly diffuse from highest level of concentration to the lowest. Substances with a positive charge quickly diffuse, and balance the charge equally. Nature abhors an ionic imbalance. That's why a pond is either 100% muddy or 100% clear.

I think some of the confusion started because of ag lime, which dissolves so slowly it needs to be spread. Gypsum also dissolves slowly, and can benefit from spreading. Alum, like salt and sugar, is hygroscopic, meaning that it readily dissolves.

Thanks for the breakdown. I was under the mistaken impression it simply attracted clay to itself as it sank. I didn't realize it disssolved in the water.
Good thing you guys aren't prejudiced against dumb rednecks.

Jeff-

Didn't work for me.

We already added 100 lbs. a couple of weeks ago but wanted to clear it up some more. Visibility right now is 12-18".