Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Muddy water 4 yr pond has not settled Muddy

I have a 4yr pond and the mudd has not settled since it was built. The pond is about 4 acres and an average of 5 feet deep. The pond has bass and blue gill. I have tried ag lime with no real noticable effect. i am thinking of using alum sulphate or gypsum. The dirt I beleive is clay. Any suggestions?

Hi Gio04

Welcome to the forum!

I am NOT the expert to address this, however, I can regurgitate the things they've [the forum experts, that is] taught me regarding suspended particles in the water column, causes/cures for turbidity, etc. I see you've been sitting for a little bit, so I thought I'd relate my similar situation and what I've learned from the Forum and Pond Boss Magazine.

My pond is less than a year old, but I'm still concerned about turbitity as clarity is pretty poor [6"] so today I filled a plastic pop bottle to see how long, and if, the sediment would settle and the clarity improve[ultra scientific method - don't try this at home!]. It's coming on hour 3 and I am seeing sediment falling to the bottom and clarity improving. This is good news for me - means I don't have an ionic imbalance which causes sediments to suspend in the water column instead of falling...[something about negatively charged ions bonding with positive...] Okay, that's enough about me.

If your sediments are not settling in a pop bottle test I believe it could be due to a few issues:

Ionic imbalance - can be addressed by addition of Alum I believe - someone will weigh in here for you.

High populations of CC, Carp, Crayfish, Bullheads or other organisms that continually disturb the bottom of the pond. Can be addressed by managing the critters.

Since you have a newly built pond I'm thinking scenario 1 is more likely.

Again, someone will come along to provide much more reliable guidance - I'm just a rook on the learn too.

Good luck, keep us posted with a sediment test, and welcome aboard again!

Geo 04 Try this thread http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=124005#Post124005 It has some helpful info on muddy ponds

thank you for the welcomes and the thread david u. I know what ALUM helpes to clear up the water WHERE CAN I GET SOME? Also if I go with gypsum, how does that work to clear up the water? I am also doing a water test and I will let you guys know how it goes.

Gio04, Contact General Chemical and they will provide you with a list of several chemical companies in your area. To get the best prices and to comply with Homeland Security Regs., you'll need to open an account to purchase. Most companies have a $100 minimum purchase and COD accounts are common. No background checks are required.

In the simplest of terms, an ionic imbalance is like putting the same poles of two magets together, they repel each other. The most common suspended particle will be negatively charged colloidal clay, which are very small particles and the negative charge makes them repel rather than clump.

Gypsum dissolves slowly and only has a plus 1 positive charge so not much will clump and this means a LOT to get the desired results. Lime has a plus 2 charge and using it in conjunction with the plus 3 charge of Alum gives you a net plus 4.5 positively charged ions. Also, alum and HYDRATED lime, NOT AG lime, readily dissolve and disperse into the water column attracting the negetively charged suspended particles. As these particles are atracted to the positive ions, they clump together to become heavy enough to fall to the bottom. As they fall they gather even more particles.

Done PROPERLY, alum/hydrated lime will completely clear the suspended solids in 12-24 hours.

Then again, I'm no expert, but when the boss is mad at me, I LIVE in a Holiday Inn Express!

Thanks Rainman...unfortunately I might be needing some of this myself this Summer. Do you know anything about estimating the qty one needs to treat on a per acre basis? Any ideas how to disperse the chemical to treat the watershed?

can you tell me the full name of aluminum sulphate that you are talking about?

I read the thread regarding alum broadcasting, sounds like two schools of thought on the subject regarding application rates. Ewest, as EVER, is on the mark recommending a bucket test FIRST which of course is something in my infinite hurry I would neglect to do.

On second thought I might just use this as an excuse to get Banks up here for some beers and bar brawls and let him take the heat for screwing up my ph.

You almost had it right, it is "Aluminum Sulfate" the Chemical name is.......ya ready.....Aluminum Sulfate. The chemical formulation is AL2(SO4)3

Use the powdered for for easier dissoving--granular takes a bit more effort. Then SPRAY, (DON'T brodcast) the slurry over the entire body of water concentrating more slurry over deeper areas. Alum will disperse but at an angle as it falls to the bottom while gathering floc. If it is not sprayed, not all that CAN be removed, will be removed. Spray the alum first and unless you like pudding don't try to lessen the effort by adding the HYDRATED lime with the alum slurry. If you are using the 50% rate of HYDRATED lime, you can either spay OR broadcast the lime only over the pond and entire water body coverage is not critical because the powdered, hydrated lime will readily and rapidly disperse throughout the entire water column within a couple hours. I always use a boat with a sprayer and while spraying the Alum slurry out of the boom in the front of the boat while slowly making circles outward from the deepest parts of the pond, I will slowly pour the Hydrated lime slowly out of the bag into the trolling motor propwash, I often sling out handfulls too.

TJ, you could broadcast some alum around the watershed, but it will be very short lived on usefulness. The first rain and all is gone. Putting in the alum before solving erosion problems just means the first few applications are just practice outings but teach you well how to do it all better and faster!

BTW TJ, When are you going to bid on the Tilapia auction at the top of the "Questions & Observations topics list????

Sorry, by "broadcasting" I meant "distributing the compound" - which I now know, thanks to you, is best done through SPRAYING.

I still have some suspending particulate...I have exceedingly fine clay particles that become disturbed at the slightest movement [Waves, etc] it seems...clouds up in a hurry! Still not sure if my watershed is a candidate for Alum application or not. Probably best to:

1. Fill the ponds completely [couple months away]
2. Wait until it settles for several weeks/months
3. Take another look next spring?

What do you think, Rainman?

Jeesh - have I already earned a rep for bidding on everything? Yeah, okay, I'll bid. I want to talk to you more about establishing a very small breeding population to keep my ponds with some TP annually - brood stock coming from YOU of course!

Let me go look for this auction.

TJ

Just a couple of quick things teejae.

If your pond gets a lot of water flow through, any chemical you add can be lost and diluted until they're no longer effective.

Alum works in 2 ways. Flocculation, which can be temporary, and saturation, which is permanent (barring the aforementioned flow through dilution problem).

Flocculation looks great, all the clay clumping together, and local and even some general clearing can bring a smile to your face. However, if the water is not saturated enough with alum to create sufficient positive ions, fine clay will soon go into suspension again.

Good luck!

Thank you Bobad - great points. Good news is I have very little flowthrough...will be trickling through the pipe.

When and if I decide to add alum I will document the process for the forum and will be adding as much as is safe to make certain it's as permanent a solution as can be hoped for.

I think that I am going to use Gypsum. I am just a wondering how mush I need to use on a 3 acre pond with an average of 5-6 feet deep. Any suggestions?

Gio

Try the link provided in this thread by David - here's what it had to say, in part:

Although not nearly as effective
as alum, gypsum also can be used
to control turbidity but without
the loss of alkalinity. Gypsum
must be added to achieve a concentration
of 100 to 300 mg/L for
effective turbidity control. For
most ponds, gypsum application
rates will range from about 1,000
to 2,000 pounds per acre (Fig. 4).
In hard-water ponds (calcium
hardness greater than 50 mg/L),
the water is nearly saturated with
calcium and gypsum may be ineffective.
In that situation, alum will
be the only effective coagulant.

Obtain a small sample of a selected
coagulant (alum or gypsum).
Collect four 5-gallon buckets of
turbid pond water. Carefully
weigh four separate, small quantities
of alum: 0.2, 0.3, 0.4 and 0.5 g.
Add each weighed amount of
coagulant to one bucket of water
and stir vigorously for 1 to 2 minutes.
Then, stir briefly every 5
minutes for up to 30 minutes.
Observe the clarity of the water.
Select the minimum dose of coagulant
that clears the water. For
example, suppose the water
cleared in buckets 3 and 4, but did
not clear in buckets 1 and 2. The
dose of alum added to bucket 3
(0.4 g) would be the proper one.
Next, estimate average pond
depth by measuring depth with a
weighted line at 10 to 20 locations
around the pond. Average depth
also can be estimated by multiplying
the maximum depth by 0.4.
Select the application rate in Table
1 by first reading across the line
for the minimum alum dose (0.4 g
in the example) and then reading
down the table to the average
pond depth. The table entry
where the two lines cross is the
coagulant application rate in
pounds per acre. To determine the
total amount of coagulant
required, multiply the application
rate from Table 1 by the number
of surface acres of the pond.
If gypsum is the coagulant selected,
the bucket test and Table 1 can
be modified slightly to determine
application rates. Simply multiply
the amount of coagulant added to
each bucket by 10, adding 2, 3, 4
or 5 g gypsum to each bucket.
Multiply the rates in Table 1 by 10
to determine the gypsum application
rate. For example, if the minimum
gypsum dose that cleared
water was added to bucket 3 ( 4 g
gypsum), and average pond
depth is 3 feet, then the gypsum
application rate is 1,810 pounds
per acre.

TJ, I have sprayed my banks with alum and poured sacks full into the inflow channels with little or no help in reducing new particles from suspending. It sure looks to me that you already know you should wait and see what happens before adding alum. If you are looking for confirmation, you've got it----Wait!

Thanks for the ice-breaking bid on the tilapia! I knew I could count on you being guilted into it!!!

Just tell some tilapia starving Dentist, that I said you could have some of his as a thank you.

Where the heck has he been lately?

Yes, confirmation...thanks my friend. A reassuring nod is helpful for a rook like myself. Seems as though everytime I think I learn something it unfolds into a dozen more questions. I like it, but it's definitely humbling.

Bruce is in DEFCON 5 mode. Don't want to steal his thunder...but he's about to unfold some pretty crazy stuff next week. Stay tuned - I don't think he's slept in two weeks, but I can't convince him to take some of my Ambien...he's a pure soul!

It wouldn't be about fish food, would it??

I shouldn't leak this info, but Dr. Condello has finally come up with a chocolate-covered manhole cover that's not bad for childrens' teeth.

I've heard a few rumblings from Dr. Frankenbruce. Didn;t realize he was so far ahead of schedule. He must have a touch of OCD too!

I'm a vault...I know NOTHING.