Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Gizzard Shad??

Greeting, brand new member from West Central Ohio here, 3/4 acre escavated 12ft pond about 75% done.
Question is about adding Gizzard Shad to the mix of LMB, BC and RES ( along with GS and FHM for baitfish)and a handful of either Blue or Channel Cats.
General public says dont do it, but several with some know how have suggested they would not spawn very well and since Im looking for them to also be castnetted by me to use for river catfishing baits, Im sure I can keep them in control.
Any thoughts? No running water, escavated pond out of all clay/silty loam area. All runoff filling pond will be clean pasture grass so no pesticides of any type will be involved.

Thanks, Salmonid

Hello, Dayton.

Gizzard Shad (GSD) are reported to be quite tricky to manage in smaller waters by Lusk, et. al. If LMB were the only predator, I would just say "Don't do it - be happy with the bream and the Shiners (GSH)."

The Blue Cats add another dimension; it will be interesting to see what the GSD experts think. Since BC get big enough to eat large bass, there shouldn't be a problem with GSD getting to large (about a 2 lbs top end, IIRC). You've got me wondering what would happen in small water with GSD and BC as the only fish.

Mark B welcome to the PB Forum. Not sure what your pond goals are. Here are a few thing to think about.

With all the types of fish you have it is no telling what will happen. Take a look at these threads about GShad in ponds. IMO it is a mistake to put GShad in a pond unless it is a big pond ( at least 10+ acres) and it has a large population of very large LMB. Way to many negatives .

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000214;p=1

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=003658

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002554

The carrying capacity of a small pond does not allow for many large GShad , BC as well as the LMB, BG and RES.

Greetings, Mark B.

What do you mean by BC? Are you talking black crappie? Since you mention blue cats later in the sentence I wasn't sure what species this is you are referring to.

Are you hoping for trophy RES at some point? Will you be flyfishing for them?

Thanks guys, like all fisherman Id love to have a trophy pond of 7-8 species but that is not relistic, so Id really like a pond that had trophy RES, and BC ( Crappie) with bass and some medium sized cats 5-10 lbs for eating, I could care less about the LMB but most folks enjoy fishing for them. Yes, Im an avid Fly fisher (Guide locally) and am looking for the Gizzard Shad to help in two ways, feed bigger cats and to give me fresh bait when I catfish in rivers.
Ill be stocking Fatheads and Golden Shiners to help get things started.

Im really torn about how to manage the pond as my fishing interests are all over the place, heck Id love to have longnose gar and a few bowfin as well as Chain Pickerel if you can imagine that, but I need to be relistic and for eating sake, Id much rather have the Blue Cats over the channels, as a trophy cat hunter, the bigger ones pose no tackle problems for me and i could always Jug fish them out if it came to that.
Maybe that helps, maybe not... 8^)

Salmonid (Mark)

What size GShad do you want to have for harvesting out of your pond?

Love your enthusiasm, Mark!!

If you estimate the "carrying capacity" of a pond that size and start to distribute that biomass amongst the various species you may find that it doesn't leave room for many quality individual fish, especially if you have blue catfish.

I would love to see you achieve some of these goals, but be cautious about just adding lots of species and then trying to manage them into your dream pond.

An example would be as follows: It is probably mutually exclusive to manage for gizzard shad and trophy RES. Just those two species alone would be an administrative nightmare to get to work. Gizzard shad are huge biomass vacuums. If you are fortunate enough to get a self-sustaining population they will obliterate your zooplankton community. This in turn will limit your larger invertebrates, which will probably make it impossible to get trophy RES.

I'm not trying to put a damper on your dream because trust me I started out exactly like you. My 1 acre pond had 500 hybrid striped bass as well as bluegill, black crappie...heck I even had walleye, sauger and fatheads. I fed the heck out of 'em and had a blast for a little over a year. You may be able to guess the rest.

Anyway, we really want you to hang around. Your experience will be really valuable to all of us and we'll try to help you out.

Bruce

Given that you want big RES, forget the shad. I would even hesitate to stock GSH; I feel they tied up significant biomass in my own pond for a couple of years and set back my goal of large BG & RES by about the same amount of time.

GSH are real good forage in a LMB-emphasis pond, IMO.

As you may have read, BCrappie can be difficult to manage in small ponds (ewest will probably post some good Crappie thread links just before or just after I complete this post). I believe the closest thing we have to CW on BCP management is to stock bass heavy and get a numerous population of small to middlin' LMB present before stocking Crappie. But a definitive, works-darn-near-all-the-time approach to managing Crappie really hasn;'t developed yet (probably due to the extreme variability in their oh-so-early spawning).

The bass-heavy approach would be a benefit to growing big Redears, as well.

Just for Theo and Mark B a link to "Crappie Pond" .

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000461;p=1

Ewest those are pretty decent Gizzard Shad and I often get what we catfishermen call a "Sumo Shad" from a few of my favorite places to cast net them, I have measured several betwen 16-17"!

Ok, so it sounds like I should bag the GS intro into the pond, now lets talk about making the pond a trophy ( eatable size) for Black Crappie and Redear Sunfish. Ok that part of the equation is simple enough, now want to add enough forage for either channels or Blue Cats up to 10 lbs,should I even bother stocking bass? Im assuming so so that the RES and BC will have some predation from something other then the cats, would I be better stocking HSB instead of LMB? Just thinking out loud here ( via my fingers) I can always add more FHM or GS to the mix, that is not a problem.

( edited/removed another question here, ) "Salmonid"

Thanks for all the input, Im a dedicated fishing fanatic and have learned a lot in the last few weeks lurking here!
Salmonid (Mark)

I know there'll be some skepticism, but I think the black crappie, redear sunfish plan is workable, provided you're very hands-on. I think that these two fish are going to utilize different "niches". Since these fish are not going to thrive on pellets you will need to work hard at propping up the invertebrate comminity. Probably the best way to do this is monitor water quality so as to maintain maximum fertility. You'll need minimal suspended silts and a consistant algae bloom. You'll also need to develop a harvest plan that minimizes each species' competition within it's own group. Learning to identify male vs. female redears will allow you to place heavy harvest pressure on the females, thus allowing the prettier males to thrive. This will reduce fecundity, reduce competition and eliminate worries that you'll keep cropping off your best fish. If you want trophy black crappie you should learn to trap or seine smaller fish and you can harvest females during the spawn if you create an area that attracts spawning size fish.

You will probably need a high density largemouth population between 10-15 inches. I'd harvest zero fish in this size range, but harvest all LMB above this size. This will keep the bigger green carp from eating the smaller green carp (LMB).


Respectfully,

Bruce Condello

Good point Bruce, Ill do just that.
Now as far as keeping/ encouraging algae blooms, what do you suggest??

Ill have about 50 cedar trees submerged to encorage macroinvertebrates and for fish/baitfish structure.

Salmonid (Mark)

Also you say to minimize Suspended silts, and that wont be a problem as the entire watershed is on my property and is all a fenced off horse pasture grass. Bottom is clay so while the water is clear and constant, the bottom will make the water appear to be murkier then it really is.

I am waiting to see if the pond will hold 100% capacity without me pumping well water into the pond to supliment it, that would be 2-3 years from now before I make the substantial investment for a well near the pond, ( already had NRCS and well digger dude look and ok the site)

With the chance of larger BC and RES in the pond, I know the BC will devour the FHM and even some of the GS but will the RES turn there attention to the FHM's? assuming they are there in good number and big enough to start eating them ( 8+" )

More thoughts ???

Salmonid (Mark)

RES will eat FH but they are not their main diet. RES will eat anything they can catch limited only by gape size.

I highly recommend that you study those threads on Crappie above. Understanding them will cover both Crappie and many pond matters.

You will need another predator in addition to the cats. You might think about SMB if you don't want LMB. Their smaller relative mouth size will have them eating small BC and RES plus FH. That is what you want if you are trying to grow large BC and RES.

One thing to note about Crappie is the potential to have cold water die-offs . Studies have shown this and have been reported by Bill. http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000067;p=1

RES also are not as cold tolerant as BG.

So you'll have to manage Winter aeration to avoid supercooling.

I'd like to interject a personal opinion here.

I think that structure, in the form of trees is overrated as a means to grow more fish, or bigger fish.

Think of your invertebrate population in the same terms as your fish population. In order to grow and multiply, invertebrates need a substrate and food. Structure doesn't increase the fertility of the water (well, maybe a teeny-tiny bit), so that leaves substrate. All substrate is is surface area on which to live and ambush prey. If you look at the surface area created by putting fake trees and sticks in your pond, it's really minor compared to a good macrophytic plant community. In other words, you may be creating more work for yourself than it's worth. And that's work in terms of creating the structure, and then attempting to fish around it. I think that the best purpose of structure is to concentrate your fish for angling opportunity. If that's the case, I would think that in a 3/4 acre pond you'd want to have three, maybe four areas of structure. Any more than that and you're actually spreading the fish out, hence making them more difficult to catch. In your case, you don't want tons of areas for smaller fish to hide, since you're trying to grow trophy RES and BC, because that just creates more competition for your adult fish.

Just an opinion......

Bruce, that is a very good point and I had always thought the more structure the better. (from an angling standpoint) But that makes plenty of sense to me, Thanks for the opinion!
Mark

Ewest and Theo, thanks for the info regarding Winter Aeration, most folks dont aerate durring the winter here mostly because of severe freezing and ruining the aerators but that is great info to know. I was always under the idea that aeration was best for the long days and low oxygen content of the water at the heat of July and August? Is that correct?
Also noted that study was done on WC where as Im looking at BC which I always took as a slightly colder water tolerant species then the WC. Again that comes from way too many years of angling so I could be wrong in that thought process.

Great info though, as I would never had thought about the supercooling of a pond by aeration, makes perfect sense.

Mark

Mark B, welcome! Are you the Salmonoid I directed here from the fishing forum?

Here's another link relating to shad about my pond near you. http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=003145 The verdict is still out on whether they are damaging or improving my pond. At this point I would not recommend them based on all the information I have found and been given on this forum. I seined out many gizzard shad last fall that were too large for my predator fish. My pond is only a few years old and this has me a little worried. It is still too early to tell if the HSB I added in addition to the LMB I already had stocked are controlling them.

Ryan, yeah, I had lurked here for quite a while but registered after you mentioned it. Lots of good info hear and at this time Im going to stay clear of the shad and try to induce a BG and BC pond with channels and HST instead of Largemouth. ( Id have went with Blue cats but they are not available in Ohio unless I buy 10+ lb fish from pay ponds.) With the weather, there hasnt been any work done on the pond in over 8 weeks now... very frustrating!!

Salmonid