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#162453 05/07/09 12:44 PM
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Fellas, I have been contacted by Scott Rakers in Southern Illinois. He is a future Pond Boss Subscriber and followed Kens advice to a tee. Although he has grown some nice fish relatively quick, he is not happy with the results so far.

Just wondering if anybody has some time to dissect his situation, give some recommendations, or share any experiences, or scrounge up some search results. Scott will be chiming in shortly.

This is from Scott:
When I purchased the property the lake was shallow (average 4 feet deep) and full of lilly pads. I drained the lake and dug out 30,000 cy of dirt in August of 2006 and with heavy rains it filled up quickly, even though only 15 to 20 acres of drainage area drain into the lake. With guidance from Ken at Ken’s Fish Farm in Georgia, the lake was constructed 14 feet deep on dam end and 7 feet deep on shallow end. The sides are all steep at 3H:1V slope. Ken said by leaving the slopes steep, the vegetation growth would be minimal and he said not to place structure or vegetation in the lake and these allow for small fish to escape/survive and could result in small size fish being overpopulated. In May of 2007 I put 15 lbs. of fathead minnows in the lake, on October 6 of 2007 I put 5,000 Georgia Giant Bluegill in the lake, in May of 2008 I put 300 largemouth bass in the lake and on October 6 of 2008 I put 300 catfish in the lake. All the fish were fingerlings (1” to 3”) when I put them in. During the warmer months of 2008 I ran an aerator during the evening hours, I had 3 bug-o-matic lights working which cripple the bugs which fall into the water for fish food and I also fed the fish twice a day. I also use blue pond dye.

I would appreciate if you read the last paragraph closely and advise if what I am doing is correct. The reason I ask is I am very disappointed in the fishing results. Last year we could catch the bass, but hardly any Georgia Giants. I tried to contribute this to maybe there were plenty of fathead minnow baitfish and the Georgia Giants weren’t hungry. But, when I fed the fish and even underneath the bug lights at night, I never observed any fish coming to eat the feed nor the bugs. This year thus far, fishing results are not any better. We have caught a total of 5 bluegill in 3 outings. The bluegill we caught are nice & fat for only 1.5 years old, but I do not understand why we aren’t catching a lot more (I put 5,000 into the lake) and I don’t understand why I don’t observe them eating crippled bugs off the surface under the bug lights or eating the fish feed.

In closing, I am scared something may have happened to the Georgia Giants, with putting 5,000 in the lake, I would think I would catch them A LOT more easily. Any thoughts or suggestions? What is easiest way to determine how many Georgia Giants are still actually in the lake?

Again, thanks for your help!

Picture of Ryan his son:



n8ly #162454 05/07/09 12:47 PM
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How big is the pond/lake?


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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You guys run for cover !! We have been through this before. I will add some links.
















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3.2 acres and has some creeping water primrose and some FA around the edges.

Thanks Eric, bring 'em on.


n8ly #162458 05/07/09 12:59 PM
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Any photos, or eyewitness accounts of the fish's condition when they were released?

I fear the worst.


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n8ly #162459 05/07/09 01:00 PM
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So 1,562 GG/acre? Sounds a little bit high.

I wonder why Ken didn't recommend his "Smallmouth Bass" (really HSB).

I think the recommended slope of the pond, 3:1, is maybe a tad dangerous for kids.

It's odd that he does not see fish coming to feed.

More information is needed.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Here is one prior post with links.

Crimson Crawfish welcome to the PB forum. You have ask a whopper of a first question. We have indeed discussed Georgia Giants here at length and it has been rather heated. There are a couple of experiments ongoing and lots of questions remaining. While there is disagreement the consensus is to treat them like HBG (Hybrid Bluegill). I have added a bunch of the threads below for your reading. There are more which can be accessed by a search. In order to avoid opening old wounds and rehashing the same matters I will lock this thread for a while so you can read the old threads. If you have questions after that I will unlock the thread .

The question of what type of fish to use depends on your goals. All HBG (GG included) have limited reproduction and as a result are not productive enough alone to act as forage for a LMB pond. There are other situations where HBG are a good choice like a put and take fishery with feeding.



http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000378

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000368#000000

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000002

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002740

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=003309;p=3

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002705

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002620

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002268

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002270

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002099

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002224

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=112031

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002233

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002089




http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post59969

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post58937

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post59743

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post62436



Here is more . The links above also contain what many here thought of Ken's suggestions. Nate how can we help you with fixing the situation ?

Original stocker



An F1 offspring.


The pics were provided by a PB member to me by email.



Last edited by ewest; 05/07/09 01:32 PM.















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Hello, Scott, and welcome to the Forum.

The 500 pound gorilla in the room which has not yet bluntly been addressed is that many/most of those 5000 GG may have died, very soon after stocking. We have seen some (very) poor survival rates for them reported (by witnesses I consider more credible than anyone except my wife) when they were shipped far from Georgia.

May I ask what condition your bass and (channel?) catfish are in? Size/body condition?

Virtually no bream, as may be the case here, is a fixable condition. Unfortunate, but it can be corrected without extreme measures. I believe you have a competent and caring professional consultant/fish squeezer(s) in Nate (& Justin).


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I am new to this, so hang with me. I actually purchased the fish through a distributor of Ken's in northern Indiana (Rim Rum). I picked them up myself and transported them to my lake in the back seat of my air conditioned extended cab truck. The drive back to my lake was 4 hours. They were contained in 4 large oxygenated plastic bags set inside cardboard boxes. When I released them into the lake, I set the bags into the water and allowed the water temp in the bags to slowly match the lake temp before releasing the fish into the lake. The only species in the lake at that time should have been FH minnows. They had survived well and populated multiple times as there were schools of them throughout the lake. Also, I did not notice any dead fish in the days/weeks after releasing them. But, only being 1 to 2" long, they may not have been visible?

The bass appear healthy and average 10" in length. The catfish I don't know yet as they were fingerlings when put in last fall (2008) and I have yet to see any this year.

I have tried crickets, worms, wax worms, meal worms, corn and jigs/lures with virtually no success on the Georgia Giants. I will read the links you guys have provided and definitely keep communicating on this. You guys are great and thanks!!!

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Eric,

That fish in the second picture looks like the gobies we have in the Great lakes.

A goby:




If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Scott: Your hauling and release methods sound, well, sound.


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WOW Eric, that was a lot of reading. That's OK I didn't want to do any billable work today anyway. \:D I actually read that entire set of links. VERY interesting reading. That all happened before I joined the forum. Prior to joining and posting I had read through much of the pond boss posts (took a couple of weeks) but at that time I didn't understand what was going on with the GG issue (I didn't know a Georgia Giant from a Mississippi Midget - LOL Burger). So I skipped a lot of it. Now I get (at least some of the issues).

Anyway, not trying to start any battles here, just saying that was interesting reading. If you read through that Scott I believe you'll have an educational experience as well.

Welcome to Pond Boss Scott, we're glad you found us. It's not about pointing fingers here it's about pond meisters helping pond meisters. Post any questions that you have. (Just don't address them to me).


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 Originally Posted By: ewest

Here is more . The links above also contain what many here thought of Ken's suggestions. Nate how can we help you with fixing the situation ?


I figured collectively we could possibly help come up with a gameplan or suggestions for Scott to help get him where he would like his pond to be. He is a little far south for me to actually go to his pond, I am completely booked solid for the entire season.


n8ly #162519 05/07/09 04:38 PM
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Stock adult BG and (if possible) a smaller number of adult RES. You won't need the size so much to escape predation (with 10" bass), but to get some spawning going ASAP. I would look for bream 6"+. We usually recommend on the order of 30-50 adult BG per care to establish a population; how does 150 BG and 50 RES sound as a starting point for discussion?

Last edited by Theo Gallus; 05/07/09 04:38 PM.

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I got my Georgia Giants from Rim Rum too...but quite the contrary, I am seeing great results from all fish I placed in my acre pond and the GG were like 1" fingerlings when I put them in...I worried they would survive too....I wonder if the 4 hour ride, may have been much for your fish.




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Mark tell us your story and pond situation.

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I agree add adult BG and RES. Also follow tried and true fisheries science advice from guys like Nate and forget any advice from Ken's. That stocking advice they provided is garbage. Think about this - A few FH (5 lbs per acre) and 5000 GG that don't produce hardly any offspring - and dye that suppresses plankton production - what were those 300 LMB going to eat - not much. With no structure or shallow water where were thee FH going to reproduce and live - not much.

Can you do a seine survey or make notes from observations looking for small fish , types and numbers. The more info the better.
















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I HAVE A ? I BOUGHT 5000 GG TO YEARS AGO AND CAN NOT CATCH ANYTHING MORE THAN 3 4 IN

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WHAT IS A GOOD BITE TO USE I HAVE USA NIGHT CRAWERS RED WIGGLERS CRICKITS

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have you tried maggots?


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NO I HAVEN'T DOES THAT WORK GOOD AND WHAT IS THAT BEST TIME TO CATCH THEM

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Theo , you say his hauling and release methods sound, well sound. I surely don't have much experience moving fish and am not as experienced as you but isn't that hauling 1250 fish per bag for 4 hrs and then perhaps another 1/2 hr in them for temp transition? Just seems like those bags would have to be VERY large.


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Bob-o, my sentiments exactly. I would think 2-300 max. per bag with plenty of O2. But, it was stated that no floaters were seen. I dont think they were GG, from Georgia, but the same hybrids sold elsewhere, and they use Holyokes name to sell them.
It seems like in every Ken Holyoke stocking, the fish end up being an afterthought to dyes, chemicals, water testings, feed, etc. I know he's in questionable health, but quite the charmer and it seems that he has some disciples.
Buyer, beware.
I remember that Meadowlark got a 1st class stocking of GG, but I am sure that was because Deb was calling the shots. They have regressed.


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My goal was to have a lake with good/fun fishing. I love to catch panfish and so do the kids, as the action with the intended panfish population should be fast. I wanted a lake with lots of big panfish, LB to control the small population and catfish as an added bonus. I am starting to aerate again and will be firing up the bug lights and feeder within the next 2 weeks. I will monitor the bug lights and feeder to see if there is any active feeding. Last year there was no action under the bug lights nor at the feeder. The only thing visisbly feeding at the feeder where the FH's nibbling on the pellets. Thus far this year, I have observed no indication of spawning activity around any of the edges.

In response to some of the other posts, although only 15 lbs, the FH were put in 6 months in advance of the GG stocking and over a year in advance of the LB stocking. I know the FH's reproduced heavily as there were schools of them all over the lake. To the post who mentioned having purchased 5,000 GG and having good success, were yours delivered in plastic bags (if so, how many bags) or were they shipped and stocked by truck?

Any suggestions on the best way to determine how many GG are actually in my lake (seining, shocking, etc.)? Did I not receive near the amount I thought? Did they somehow die although they appeared active and healthy when I stocked them? Is there somehow so much food for them they are not aggresive? Do I need to have the water tested? Should I contact my IDNR fisheries biologist for advice? Thanks for the advice everyone.

Finally, what is RES?

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 Originally Posted By: Bob-O
Theo , you say his hauling and release methods sound, well sound ... isn't that hauling 1250 fish per bag ... Just seems like those bags would have to be VERY large.

I missed the number of bags. \:o Were they like, huge?


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