Pond Boss Magazine
http://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Strat, Wholesale septic, Sledgehammer, Tiger4n, Chris22
15035 Registered Users
Forum Stats
15035 Members
36 Forums
34795 Topics
475787 Posts

Max Online: 1039 @ 03/28/13 02:44 PM
Top Posters
esshup 24012
Cecil Baird1 20043
ewest 18957
Dave Davidson1 13093
Theo Gallus 12332
Who's Online
9 registered (elnoseface, Brand0, Zep, sprkplug, azteca, John Fitzgerald, catmandoo, highflyer, scott69), 133 Guests and 391 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#132478 - 09/14/08 10:22 PM Lily and Lotus questions...
TennJeff Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 96
Loc: Tennessee
I've been lurking and reading. Trying to educate myself through the archives. I've still got questions though .
My pond is about an acre, deepest at 15ft. Bottom aerated and well fed. Stocked with BG last year and a few bass this spring. I'd really like to add some lilies, for the health of the pond but mostly because I like the look. I'd like to try 3-4 kinds/flower colors in several locations around the pond.
I DO NOT want my pond over run. That's my biggest concern.
My plan is to go container grown. Do they readily get out of the container and spread?
If I went with tropicals, they would die out in our winter (zone 7) and definately not spread beyond a single season but then I start from scratch next year. I haven't read a pro/con for hardy vs tropical other than hardy surviving winter?
I see lotus for sale at most of the lily sites but no mention here? How do they compare?
Thanks!
Jeff-
_________________________
1 acre pond, slopes to 15ft depth. Has BG and few LMB plus a half dozen pesky sliders.


Top
#132493 - 09/15/08 08:04 AM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: TennJeff]
GW Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 2286
Loc: Central florida
Hi Jeff, welcome.

I'm thinking of adding lily to my new pond also. I got the impression that they can be controlled fairly well using chemicals. Wouldn't the depth of your pond be a limiting factor? It seems the biggest risk is that you'll get a rim of lily/lotus around the edges.
_________________________
My Black Soldier Fly Blog

Top
#132504 - 09/15/08 09:39 AM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: GW]
jeffhasapond Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/06
Posts: 7613
Loc: Pond in No CA, Me in So CA
Hello Jeff and welcome to Pond Boss. I'm a fan of lilies. I don't have any yet but I'm gonna add some in the future. You have to be careful with lilies in that some of the cheap ones that are readily available can be very invasive.

Here's a link that discusses lilies:

Lilies

Another lily thread
_________________________
JHAP
~~~~~~~~~~

"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)

Top
#132505 - 09/15/08 09:56 AM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: jeffhasapond]
Ric Swaim Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 1902
Loc: Surry Co NC
Here's a post I had saved where lotus is mentioned:


 Quote:
andrew davis
Lunker
Member # 509

Member Rated:

posted December 08, 2003 11:26 PM

Hi Backabit

The 'invasive' lily types to avoid are the nuphars, native lotus (which have tunneling rhisomes) and native lilies which drop a lot of fertile seed, eg odoratas or alba's

Any medium to large variety of hybrid waterlily can do well on a large natural pond planted at 2' to 3' deep (easy to paddle depth) these tend to grow at a steady rate, maybe two feet a year and are quite easy to 'thin out' when waters are warm for a paddle. Hybrid varieties rarely drop viable seed....

There's a photo in the web shots gallery folder 'Pond life' indicating a hybrid varieties growing habit:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/99477855/97297215IttXdj


_________________________
Pond Boss Subscriber & Books Owner


If you can read this ... thank a teacher. Since it's in english ... thank our military!
Ric

Top
#132511 - 09/15/08 10:45 AM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: Ric Swaim]
TennJeff Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 96
Loc: Tennessee
Thanks everybody! Good info.

GW, I'm trying to wean myself off of using so many chemicals. Unfortunatly, the replacement for chemicals is manual labor. Correct about the ring of lilies because of depth, but I don't want my entire shore line covered so I guess I'm gonna be busy.

JHAP, no lilies yet? \:o Those are some good links btw. We are definately not looking for some cheap throw away plants, (my wife can pick the most rare/expensive without even seeing prices) I plan to research over the next couple months and make a handful of picks, then post up and ask the experts which to buy.

Ric, I haven't found the growth habit pics yet, but that webshots site has some incredible pics of lilies from all over, makes me more determined to try my hand at some. Andrew only barely mentions the lotus \:\( but I am getting the impression from some other research that they are much more invasive than lilies? might depend on variety though?

Jeff-
_________________________
1 acre pond, slopes to 15ft depth. Has BG and few LMB plus a half dozen pesky sliders.


Top
#132514 - 09/15/08 10:55 AM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: TennJeff]
Rainman Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame

Lunker

Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 6771
Loc: St Louis, MO area
TennJeff, I wanted some lillies too. I intended to plant this spring but because of a bunch of things, it didn;t happen. Out of fear for invasive plants, I bought several hundred seeds off ebay for less than $5. All were tropical lilly and lotus. I chose them for the price and incredible colors as well as being an annual in the pond. I think for $5, I can do it each year. I plan to make small balls of clay and put seed into them to drop where I want the lilly to grow, but will now have to wait till next year. I also got a bunch of Blue and Yellow Flag Iris seed and some canna seed.
_________________________
Rainman

www.TilapiaStockers.com


Top
#132518 - 09/15/08 11:17 AM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: Rainman]
GW Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 2286
Loc: Central florida
Good point about limiting the use of chemicals Jeff. If it came down to it I think I could live with a ring of lilys around my pond. They don't seem to be as annoying as many types of aquatic weeds are, and I'm thinking that they would help control unwanted plants by using up free nutrients.
_________________________
My Black Soldier Fly Blog

Top
#132560 - 09/15/08 04:32 PM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: GW]
Ric Swaim Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 1902
Loc: Surry Co NC
TenJeff here's Andrews web page: http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html
He has a pretty good selection. I make a list of what I want from his site & e-mail it to him & he advises on suitable plants. I'm pretty ignorant on water plants so it's really nice to have someone that knows the plants.
_________________________
Pond Boss Subscriber & Books Owner


If you can read this ... thank a teacher. Since it's in english ... thank our military!
Ric

Top
#133667 - 09/26/08 06:16 PM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: Ric Swaim]
LRunkle Offline

Lunker

Registered: 04/24/02
Posts: 181
Loc: Norman, Oklahoma
I have had a lot of experience with decorative water lilies and lotus in my 3 acre pond. The vast majority of hybridized hardy water lilies will not take over your pond, in fact, they may need to be coddled to get them started. I usually start mine in large pots with garden soil and transfer out of them after the first year. Plastic chemical drums sawed in half work great and are very cheap. Suppliers often don't have a clue about which species are invasive as most people are planting in pots in cement lined backyard water gardens. Lilypons and Slocum's are 2 mail order companies I have used and both have some knowledgeable personnel to give advice. I have personally had excellent results with "Pink Sensation" (dark pink, fragrant),"James Brydon" (deep red), Sunrise(yellow). Tropical water lilies will definitely not overwinter in zone 7(same zone as me in Norman, OK). Muskrats also love the roots of tropical water lilies and I had $250 of plants destroyed overnight once before I learned this. Once tropicals are established the muskrats tend to leave them alone but I used to put up chicken wire cages around my tropicals for several weeks. Two years I grew the Amazonian tropical "Victoria" which has the leaves 4-6 feet in diameter. It is thorny beyond belief but has enormous visual drama. I have not grown these for a few years now. If you decide to pursue this next spring, post again and I will answer what questions I can.
_________________________
Layton Runkle

Top
#133702 - 09/27/08 08:57 AM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: LRunkle]
TennJeff Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 96
Loc: Tennessee
Thanks LR!
I've always planned to try lilies on my pond. We were only just able to get our well this summer and now have a sustainable water line (WOO!). I'm definately gonna spend the winter educating myself and getting supplies ready... Can't wait to try these beauties out!

Jeff-
_________________________
1 acre pond, slopes to 15ft depth. Has BG and few LMB plus a half dozen pesky sliders.


Top
#133723 - 09/27/08 11:03 AM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: TennJeff]
jeffhasapond Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/06
Posts: 7613
Loc: Pond in No CA, Me in So CA
Good stuff Layton.

Oh and Tenn, I didn't notice your question before. Nope no lillies yet. This year I was battling Elodea - which I'm happy to report that so far we are winning the battle. I'm hoping to get some lillies going next year.
_________________________
JHAP
~~~~~~~~~~

"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)

Top
#134182 - 09/30/08 04:36 PM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: jeffhasapond]
LRunkle Offline

Lunker

Registered: 04/24/02
Posts: 181
Loc: Norman, Oklahoma
Another thing to bear in mind with aquatic plantings is the annual fluctuation of the water level in your pond. I have a well and pump where I can keep mine reasonably stable(within a 1-2 feet of pool level except during extreme droughts and heat waves. One additional advantage of starting with containized water lilies or lotuses or even some of the marginal plants is that you can move them into deeper water if needed. I attach rope handles to my chemical drums (which are sawed in half lengthwise for greatest cross sectional area). It is pretty easy to move them into the water due to the buoyancy somewhat neutralizing the weight of the soil. After getting used to the chemistry/environmentof your pond, the lilies will multiply to fill the drum,normally in one season. You can then just dig up big hunks of soil containing lily roots and dump them into spots where you want them to grow. Also if you have any interest in marginals such as pickerel rush, or thalia, you get such shrimpy plants from suppliers for a considerable price, that it is more effective as well as cheaper multiply your own in a container and then transplant later in the season or the next year. The larger,more robust and acclimated potted acquisitions will fare much better against the native plant competition.
_________________________
Layton Runkle

Top
#134270 - 10/01/08 08:54 AM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: LRunkle]
jeffhasapond Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/06
Posts: 7613
Loc: Pond in No CA, Me in So CA
Fluctuating water level in my pond would be a huge issue. I like your idea of the drums sawn sawed sawified cut in half with the ropes tied to them. Great idea Layton!
_________________________
JHAP
~~~~~~~~~~

"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)

Top
#134271 - 10/01/08 09:00 AM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: jeffhasapond]
TennJeff Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 96
Loc: Tennessee
On the subject of the barrels,
I found a source for free ones BUT they are from a crop dusting outfit south of me... which means the've had all manner of chemicals in them. Any way to nuetralize them? Bleach/water scrub? Some are blue, some are white, I have no idea what was in which.

Jeff-
_________________________
1 acre pond, slopes to 15ft depth. Has BG and few LMB plus a half dozen pesky sliders.


Top
#134923 - 10/06/08 04:08 PM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: TennJeff]
LRunkle Offline

Lunker

Registered: 04/24/02
Posts: 181
Loc: Norman, Oklahoma
I have always been careful about what was in the barrels previously. I was always able to identify the contents. Most stuff they dust crops with is going to degrade to become harmless if they use it on food crops. Heavy metals like copper or arsenic will not, of course. Usually the proprietor with the barrels has some knowledge about what they contained, sometimes the barrels are still labeled. I have had barrels that contained ethanol, apple juice concentrate, and various oils and organic solvents. The place I get mine steam cleans them for a little extra. I usually hose them out with some soap and water for good measure. Jeff, lotuses can grow out of water pretty easily as long as the soil is just dry on the surface and not down deep, so they can be planted along the margins. Both lotuses and water lilies will grow over the sides of containers(especially shallow ones) when they become crowded. They thus become naturalized and save you the trouble of transplanting them. Should unwanted spread occur water lilies can be pretty easily controlled with glyphosate(Roundup-aquatic version) but you have to use a sticking and wetting agent as liquids just bead up on the leaves and don't distribute well. Lotuses are VERY hard to get herbicides applied to the leaves (their surface properties are so unique they are actively being researched-just read an article about that in Scientific American). Water just beads up nearly in spheres on lotus leaves. Fortunately, I have had no trouble with lotus aggression, in fact, quite the coontrary. I get stands of lotus started and they grow great and look terrific for a few years and then seemto fizzle out. Once a wild lotus strain-the yellow native lotus here- got into my pond from somewhere and took over an entire cove, growing in up to 6 feet of water. It lasted a couple of years and then just disappeared for some reason.
_________________________
Layton Runkle

Top
#134924 - 10/06/08 04:12 PM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: LRunkle]
LRunkle Offline

Lunker

Registered: 04/24/02
Posts: 181
Loc: Norman, Oklahoma
I occured to me that cropdusters will frequently use surface active agents to make the pesticide or whatever active ingredient they are spraying stick to the leaves of the crops. If you could identify those containers they should be perfect after a simple wash.
_________________________
Layton Runkle

Top
#134932 - 10/06/08 06:18 PM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: LRunkle]
TennJeff Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 96
Loc: Tennessee
Thanks LR. Good info all around.
The source for my barrels is through a co-worker, near his deer camp. He's already asked about and been granted free barrel rights but the owner won't be around in November when he hunts so I can't ask by proxy what was in what. Maybe they still are labeled. I'm sure you're right that one color barrel or the other had the spreader-sticker in it. I'm gonna gamble that a good bleach soak and wash gets them nuetralized regardless.

I'm thinking this first year/attempt at lilies ('09), I'll start in containers. Watch how fast they grow and decide if I want them to go au-natural. Since I'm planning to try 5 or 6 colors and at least one or more will be a tropical, it should make it easier to cull the rejects in the fall. I know it sounds crazy, but how else do I find out with no experience, what I like and what my pond likes?

Jeff-

*edit*
I forgot to ask, what's the difference or pro/con of lotus over lily?


Edited by TennJeff (10/06/08 06:21 PM)
Edit Reason: add-on comment
_________________________
1 acre pond, slopes to 15ft depth. Has BG and few LMB plus a half dozen pesky sliders.


Top
#137332 - 10/28/08 03:05 AM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: TennJeff]
andrew davis Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/18/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Carolina's
Hmmm pro's and cons, lotus v. waterlily

Well, there is a lot of variation in the waterlily fraternity in terms of size, and growing habit, from miniature to fifteen foot wide tropical varieties. Some are very well behaved, some are brutes.

There are very well behaved cold tolerant tropical waterlilies very suitable for naturalising, there are fabulous hardy hybrids which have superb flowering habits and well behaved growing habits, 'choice varieties'... There are ragamuffin 'coarse varieties', of which it might be said they have the merit that they can grow fast enough to cope with ravening hoards of turtles and ducks.

In a native setting, it might be good to have a two fold strategy, to establish a few strong growing 'coarse' varieties which in future are to be harshly culled to establish a desireable 'bridghead' of aquatic plants, to later add the more vulnerable 'choice' varieties when it becomes apparent the battle to plant the pond with desireable varieties becomes feasible...

The lotus are a different beasty... They can spread by runner at the rate of six foot per month, they can drop seed that can pop up all over the place. A large pond or lake might be choked in just a few years.

If you can rigorously control the area lotus grow in and weed the seeds that drift and start up, not so bad. Most critters will find all parts of lotus edible and tasty, muskrats may destroy a colony. No surprise, lotus is a delicacy in many oriental cultures

Perhaps, try lotus in a bay with a narrow mouth where it is easy to rip the stray runners out, that would make a pleasant sheltered spot for spawn and fry.

Or, using a sturdy pond liner, make an enclosure where lotus can romp, but ruthlessly cull any lotus runners that stray out of their enclosure... A shape of blocks into which you lay a sturdy liner, two foot deep in the body of a lake might make a safe place to unleash the lotus beast...

There is a brief period in early Summer, when lotus are magnificent, huge blooms, tremendous scent. Through the rest of the year the very durable spent foliage is tatty and their fast growing, choking growing habit is a bane...

Regards, andy
http://community.webshots.com/user/adavisus
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21940871@N06/


Top
#137408 - 10/28/08 06:05 PM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: andrew davis]
TennJeff Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 96
Loc: Tennessee
Thanks Andy! Great advice. I doesn't sound like I have the space or temperament to try lotus monsters. I am very excited to give waterlily a try though. I will contact you in the spring for some specific recommendations.

Jeff-
_________________________
1 acre pond, slopes to 15ft depth. Has BG and few LMB plus a half dozen pesky sliders.


Top
#137426 - 10/28/08 09:18 PM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: TennJeff]
andrew davis Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/18/03
Posts: 180
Loc: Carolina's
Hi Jeff,
Goodoh, if you know what to expect you can start to make some decisions which deliver a long term benefit.

Planting a pond or lake is definitely doable, though some things may need anticipating, predation from aggressive fish, turtles, ducks can be something of a hurdle early Summer, establishing some critter tough plants and protecting them while they get up to size combined with a little huntin, shootin, fishin and trapping is not so bad a past time if the critter population needs tweaking e.g. A few painted turtles are good guys for scavenging tidbits, a surplus of huge honking snapping turtles might better be viewed simmering in the pot

If you dig a large tub or a small pond in beside the pond or lake, its doable to enjoy getting to know a few lotus varieties without the risk of them running rampant.

Regards, andy
http://community.webshots.com/user/adavisus
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21940871@N06/

Top
#137751 - 10/31/08 03:07 PM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: TennJeff]
TailorMade Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 1
Loc: Ohio
Water Lilies will only grow at a max maybe about 4-5 feet deep in a pond so the center should never be covered with vegitation. There are many hybrid varieties I found at Pond Megastore that were really pretty. My wife and I have added about 15 colors over the last 3 years to our 2 acre pond. They are wonderful Pond Plants and stay contained as they are not the invasive wild varieties.

Top
#137756 - 10/31/08 05:07 PM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: TailorMade]
Ryan Freeze Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 1285
Loc: Southwest Ohio
TailorMade, Do you have any pictures? I'm not as interested in closeup pics of individuals as I am of how they look in the pond as a whole.

I tried tossing in some from ebay and they kept getting rooted up (probably by grass carp)and eventually died. I didn't put much effort into protecting or planting them though.
_________________________


"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking

Top
#137770 - 10/31/08 08:49 PM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: Ryan Freeze]
Bill Cody Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 11990
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Some of the hybrid lilies (most often the larger sized yellows and whites) will grow to depths greater than 5 ft. Depth of growth has to do with the variety. bottom compositon and water clarity.
_________________________
Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management

Top
#159549 - 04/19/09 12:39 PM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: Bill Cody]
TennJeff Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 96
Loc: Tennessee
Bumping this back up to the top! Lily time should be getting close?
I think the water needs to get just a touch warmer.

Anybody else trying lilies this year?


Jeff-
_________________________
1 acre pond, slopes to 15ft depth. Has BG and few LMB plus a half dozen pesky sliders.


Top
#159552 - 04/19/09 12:49 PM Re: Lily and Lotus questions... [Re: TennJeff]
burgermeister Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
I am probably heading up to Texas Water Lilies in Conroe this week. I want to see how they actually look. Their prices are a lot better than that Megastore and they have a good reputation.
I really like the Attraction and Maya. They will tell you all about their growth habits, since they grow them. I dont have much cover, so I want some shade for the fish. I will post what I discover.
_________________________

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Today's Birthdays
Bill Cook, Bossone, hugh greer, Kris C5
Recent Posts
100% Green Sunfish
by Jim Wetzel
06:16 PM
Southern Specklebelly Sunfish - SSS
by Jim Wetzel
06:11 PM
Crayfish for human consumption.
by Jim Wetzel
05:57 PM
Brush PIle for Pond
by 2blade
04:17 PM
A pond dedicated to Redear Sunfish
by John Fitzgerald
01:44 PM
Dave Davidson Gift Keeps On Giving!
by FireIsHot
11:53 AM
Another Otter bites the dust
by snrub
10:17 AM
"policy" on old content resurrection?
by sprkplug
07:50 AM
Best Source For Large Redears............
by snrub
11:56 PM
Known Hybrids Based on Pumpkinseed Dam
by sprkplug
10:31 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Sand Quarry
Cactus Blum Ranch proposed pond
Cactus Blum Ranch proposed pond
Cracked Valve Housing
Indoor Dwarf Sagittaria tank.
#MAFA

2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide