Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose gizzard shad vs golden shiners

i am building a 3 to 4 acre trophy bass pond and was wondering which is best for forage?

The pond will be about 11 ft deep

ps would I use fertilizer on how much

Thanks

I'm sure the experts will be along shortly, but if it was my pond I'd stick with the golden shiners. It's my opinion that the gizzard shad can get bigger than the bass can utilize.

But, don't take my opinion as gosepel.

Shiners for start up, GShad only after audlt bass become established. Lusk has GShad stocking guidelines in "Raising Trophy Bass", IIRC. It would be 2-4 years downstream from startup.

GShiners for sure. There is a lot here on GShad and its not all positive. There are quite a few studies that caution about GShad in ponds. You have to have large predators to eat big GShad. IMO at least 25 % of the LMB over 20 inches. Here is a pic of a GShad







At the 20 inch range for these GShad I am not sure any LMB can eat them. Plus they suppress reproduction of other more desirable pond species.

I agree with others. IMO you should first establish a good standard forage fish base that includes GShiner. Adequate populations of gshiner contain adults in the 8"-10" range; a decent mouthfull for most larger bass. Then manage the pond properly and keep bass numbers adjusted toward a goal of large bass. Then see where the bass are toping out regards to largest fish. Then if necessary add gizzard shad. That way the higher numbers of larger bass present will hopefully keep the numbers of larger shad from becoming too abundant. IMO with PROPER management of bass sizes and numbers (slot harvest limits) plus presence of LOTS of non-shad forage fish (6"-8" sizes) you should be able to grow good numbers of large bass without gizzard shad.

I am going out on a limb here, but IMO most ponds with good forage fish populations do not produce trophy bass because the bass numbers are not maintained properly (proper harvest) to produce an optimum number of trophy sized fish (reduce competition to optimize growth of remaining fish).

Another option to grow trophy bass is to each fall add a delivery of 8"-12" trout. The trout are high energy food for the bass during fall, winter and spring until the deeper water reaches 70F. If one is truly a lover of growing and maintaining trophy bass, adding trout to pamper your trophy bass is not that unreasonable. Plus the trout will never cause fish balance problems within the fishery.

Not an expert here by any means, but what I've read and been told the shiners are the way to go.

I am a fan of the trout idea as well. Plus you can enjoy fishing for them all winter and then come spring the bass can feast on them as they slowly die. Tilapia during the warm months may also be an option to consider.

Finishing my second year of trout this spring, 100# in November, another 75# a month ago. Shocking on Thursday.....

The only downside to trout that I can see, other than the cost, is the possibility that they're foraging on a lot of TS and YOY BG. That didn't seem to occur last year, as I had really excellent populations of both, but it would seem to be a potential problem.

happytimes, you should fertilize, yes.

You should get the Pond Boss Bob Lusk's book "Raising Trophy Bass" if you're after big bass. The reality is most people aren't after "trophy bass" - just a good fishery with nice fish.

Page 42 talks about GShad in detail, including statements like: "In the past 20 years, every legitimate trophy bass lake under our care has had a shad population. Every one. It may sound like a bold statement, but it's true. Show me a lake with respectable numbers of bass larger than 10 pounds, and I will show you a lake with a diverse forage base, most often with threadfin and/or gizzard shad complementing the usual cast of characters--minnows, frogs, crawfish, and of course bluegill." He also talks about 25-30% of the fish being over the magic 16".

There are lots of conflicting opinions on here, so read up. My personal opinion is that it's not an "or" type of question. If you want huge bass in a 3-4 acre pond it's going to require management (including harvest), but the forage question between shiners and shad is an AND question, just a matter of timing and when. TShad are phenomenal, and in the early stages probably a better choice, depending upon how warm it stays where you're at. But for the right goals, GShad do have their place and purpose.

Here's an article from Pond Boss in 2004:
http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/gizzard_shad.html

In addition, here's a great thread and debate on the topic from a few years ago:
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...ite_id=1#import

Lets not confuse things. TShad are an entirely different situation. I asked Bob about that quote under GShad and IIRC he was using shad generically. I suggest that Bob answer - I think I can find his reply on the forum.

I completely agree with Bill's post. I have seen very good trophy LMB ponds with no shad. It takes mgt but can be done without shad. A fair % of people use TShad and a few GShad. IMO you can get the same results with TShad without the various GShad problems and still keep a good BG population.

IMO starting a southern pond (including OK) by stocking with GShad as part of the initial stocking of small fish (2-3 inch stockers)is a serious mistake. Using them later as noted above may work but you have to understand what you are doing.

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OK guys lets discuss this. First the link by Aaron to the PB thread by Bill is newer than the other link to a K. Nutt article in PB. IMO there is just as much or more info against GShad in most instances as he cites for using them in limited circumstances. Mr Nutt established SEP and is an excellent FS. He has his opinions as do others. I will not do a point by point analysis of the points I disagree with. You can read his article and the PB thread. There is subsequent research as well. I suggest you read the stuff below off the SEP web site which is what they suggest now. There are IMO differences in his first article and the newer info below. I think the info below is well done. Like all general recommendations they have to be applied to location specific circumstances as they note. Highlights in blue by me.

http://www.sepond.com/GZS.html


Gizzard shad (Dorsoma cepedianum) also are a member of the herring family - Clupeidae. They occur in many rivers and reservoirs across the southeast and are occasionally stocked in ponds managed for trophy largemouth bass. Adult gizzard shad are substantially larger than threadfin shad, often reaching lengths in excess of 12 inches in fertile waters. Juvenile gizzard shad can resemble threadfin shad in coloration. However, gizzard shad have a subterminal mouth with the upper jaw extending well past the lower jaw. Also, the upper jaw has a well-defined notch in the center. Gizzard shad are pelagic filter feeders, feeding primarily on plankton, algae, and suspended organic material. However, they will often "graze" on the bottom, feeding on aquatic insects and organic sediment. Gizzard shad begin spawning about the same time as threadfin shad; however, reproduction during the latter part of the growing season is less evident. Also, gizzard shad are much more tolerant of low temperature than threadfin shad and not as susceptible to winter mortality.Gizzard Shad in Sport Fish Ponds
In certain situations, and if managed correctly, gizzard shad can be an ideal supplemental forage for producing exceptionally large bass. Trophy bass require large food items, measuring 6 to 10 inches in length to continue to grow. Gizzard shad quickly grow to 6 and 7 inches long and will achieve a larger adult size than threadfin shad, thus providing the larger bass with a more efficient prey item. They may also serve as an alternative to threadfin shad as an additional forage base in ponds located in colder climates.
Drawbacks
When stocked into a bass/bluegill pond, their large potential size and rapid growth rate often allow gizzard shad to "stockpile" at a size too large to be consumed by the bass. Over time, they can occupy a large portion of the total fish biomass within the pond. Gizzard shad reproduction eventually will decrease in response to over-crowding, resulting in little forage for the average size bass in the population. To avoid this situation, it is usually necessary to remove a portion of the gizzard shad population every 3 to 5 years with rotenone. Maintaining a healthy, reproducing population is the key to managing gizzard shad in sport fish ponds.
Pond RequirementsThe requirements of gizzard shad in ponds are similar to threadfin shad. However, gizzard shad have a much broader range of water temperature and water quality in which they can live. Introducing gizzard shad with threadfin shad creates a more natural environment for each species by providing a healthy competition for the available food. We have found that the period gizzard shad continue reproducing is often extended in ponds that also have an established threadfin shad population. Therefore, the amount of time between corrective rotenone treatments can be extended. When stocked together, threadfin shad will be especially beneficial to the growth of smaller bass.
When and How Many to Stock
We recommend stocking gizzard shad in trophy bass ponds when they have a large number of bass over 16 inches in length in the population. They are usually stocked in the spring but can be stocked later in the growing season when available. The stocking rate may be similar to threadfin shad; however, it is usually determined individually for each pond.

I addition to fall trout stockings for the reasons Bill Cody stated, Spring tilapia may be a better option for the months when trout can't survive and as a bonus you get vegetation control.

The gizzard shad in my pond are under control at this point. Mr. Lusk recommended stocking Hybrid stripers to control them and it has worked. If I want to increase gizzard shad numbers I believe I could easily reduce hybrid stripers numbers to help accomplish this. They are extremely prolific and extremely fast growing and I'm not exactly recommending gizzard shad. However, if very actively managed I can see how they could be beneficial. IME, Gizzard shad are much more easily seined and caught with a cast net than other species. In a small 1/2 acre pond such as mine, periodically removing some large shad isn't very difficult.

Ryan those are good results. James has also had good results under a similar situation. He has big HSB and LMB that crop down the GShad. He has not seen one bigger than about 8-9 inches IIRC. The GShad were introduced by accident after he had big HSB and LMB however.

Excellent post Ewest and Bill. It seems to me that Gizzard Shad will, under the wrong circumstances, become another fish that needs to be managed. The photos of how big they get are amazing.



This was is the one concept that I think most new pond meisters need to grasp. Sure you can have trophy bass (what ever your particular definition for trophy bass is, over 6 pounds? over 8 pounds? over 10 pounds? higher?) but what a pond meister must grasp is that you can only have so many 8 pound bass swimming around a 1 acre pond. That bass will eat, what 80 pounds of forage just to gain another pound?

I guess that I post the obvious like this every once in a while because I had to grasp that concept before I realized that I really didn't want a trophy anything pond. I just wanted a pond where I could throw the line in the water and catch a variety of fish. That's it.

Oh and Happy, this wasn't aimed at you, I know that you didn't mention a trophy bass pond. I just feel the need to point out the obvious every once in a while so that sounds like I know what I'm talking about. Carry on.

JHAP like you we mostly manage for balanced healthy populations. Fishing all day or for a week just to get one or 2 bites from a trophy LMB is not what the family wants. I do know plenty of ponds managed for trophy LMB with happy owners. Its just a question of goals. It is common for new owners to say they want a trophy LMB pond only to change their mind later.

Eric would you say it is easier to go from trophy bass pond to balanced pond or vice versa?

I think it depends on so many variables I would hate to generalize to much. Both ways are possible and each presents its own obstacles to overcome. IMO it really is fact dependant. Some factors are , pond size , productivity , fish species present , budget , work effort of owners , location (regional differences are huge) , current status of each fish population , feeding or not , fertilizing or not (if needed) , fish species available to stock , status of the pond at the time (carrying capacity questions) etc.

Eric, I wasn't trying to stir it up. Clearly GShad shouldn't be stocked year one.. but years down the line, they can have their place in the right pond with large predators.

Aaron its good to stir the pot and that is good material. I try to remind myself that every tool has its use and place. Very interesting to see one article and compare it to what was written later. No one knows all the answers or even a small % of them. We are in this to learn so its good to keep an open mind and keep stirring it around. Keep up the good work.

Fully agree Eric. When I got into this I went back and purchased the entire PB catalog of magazines. It was fun to read 'back in the day' that those Tilapia were frowned upon. Today, they're more of a staple in bass forage.

Even some of the cool stuff that Greg Grimes is doing with 3-4x the normal amount of forage is intriguing. If people weren't experimenting this hobby wouldn't have grown.

Personally, one day I want to have a pond dedicated to trophy LMB (give me a few years), and I promise I will stock those nasty smelly slimy big GShad in it.

Not much higher in lipids and protein than a big greasy GShad. RT are a close second.

I went back to the beginning and reread Happy's initial post that stated: "... building a 3 to 4 acre trophy bass pond...". We as Forum members never received from Happy what he considered a trophy bass. IMO a trophy bass could easily be a fish any size from 4 lbs to 10 lbs. Most would be very happy with a LMB that weighed 6-7 lbs and consider that a trophy. The Fisheries Techniques book co-edited by our Forum member Dr. Dave Willis says (pg 464) a Trophy LMbass is a minimum of 25" long (std wt of 9.3 lbs) and a Memorable LMB is a minmum 20" (wt 4.6lbs).

In addition to what has been mentioned previously about growing some "large" LMB another relatively new method is being researched as you read this. It is growing big bass using the new large food pellet called Aquamax Largemouth. This large 1" pellet was designed to contain the food nutrition content of a trout. Thus it is very capapable of growing big fish. No one yet really knows how big the pellet eating bass will get when regularly feeding these high protein nuggets to bass. To date LMbass have gotten to six pounds and growing - some this year will reach the 7 lb mark with an occassional 8 pounder showing up; a trophy in many anglers mind.

So with new technology being used today one can actually grow truly big bass without forage fish or with a limited amount of forage fish present.

As was mentioned earlier it will be easier and more feasable to to grow more 5-7 lb bass in 3 acres of water compared to 9-10 pounders due to carrying capacity limits of the pond. Having more slighly smaller bass per acre in reality means more catches of bass per angling hour which is more appealing to me than fewer catches of bigger bass.

Another important thing to consider, that has not been discussed, is if the bass are fed and growing primarily on Aquamax Largemouth Pellets to produce big bass one will be able to grow MORE bass per acre compared to if the bass were growing on just natural food items. That IMO will be a big, big advantage for many pondowners who are wanting to grow large bass without encountering lot of the potential problems managing problematic forage fish. Who would not be happy with a 1-3 acre pond that contained a high number of aggressive 4-7 lb bass?

I have been reading the posts here and I am going to come down on Eric's side on this issue. I am starting to see large gizzard shad this spring not many but some and now there is no way to control them. I have a few bass that can eat a one pound injured hybrid but not many. If I wanted to get rid of them at this point I couldn't. I didn't stock the gizzard shad they just appeared after a flood. The problem that I see is that you lose control. The good thing about tilapia or trout is that if you stocked too many this year you can stock less next year. Eric how large would you guess a hybrid would have to be to eat a large adult gizzard shad? I think that the hybrid is a better shad predator than a bass.

Depends on the size of the large adult gizzard shad... They can top 20"! The average pond might grow 10 lb hybrids and a fantastic pond may grow them into the high teens. The world record hybrid weighed in at 27 pounds 5 ounces. Even at that size I doubt it could swallow a 16" gshad... Remember, hybrids have much smaller mouths in comparison to largemouth... Pure striped bass have slightly larger mouths than hybrids. IMO 12-14" gshad is about tops for the size a large hybrid could take on.

What we all need to hope for is a fish farm out there start propagating lake chubsuckers, then there won't be a question about whether to use gshad... Lake chubsuckers are probably the single best big bass forage out there.

James here is a quote from K.Nutt on the subject of LMB/GShad. What size GShad are you seeing?

"Large" is, of course, relative to the size of bass eating the shad. Research has shown a largemouth bass can eat a bluegill about 1/3 it's length. Therefore, a 12 inch bass can eat a 4 inch bluegill. However, a bass can eat a gizzard shad more than 50% of it's body length. My colleagues and I have electrofished bass with recently swallowed gizzard shad well over half it's body length. Usually, we first notice a forked tail extending from the bass' mouth.

Bill excellent point - I forget to consider that option all to often as so few use it.

Aaron just look back at my articles. I basically said back in 2000 do not stock gizzard shad now we are in the right circumstance. Makes me look silly.

James I do not know your entire situation but think you are overreacting. So what if a few gizzrad can not be utilized by the bass. It will be years I predcit befroe the GZ would start to have major negetative effects. If GZ "takeover" and reduce bass recuirtment then you can simply stock more pure genetic bass. ALso you can try a rotenone application to reduce big GZ.

Don't get me worng it can be bad. However the resutls int he meantime are wonderful.

Eric remember Lake Sovereign from GA PB meeting? They got GZ before we even had the bass 10 inches. It has been 5 years now they are just now starting to get mostly int he 10" plus range with a few 15 inch or more. The fishing right now is incredible. They have caugth about 10 bass over 8 lbs this year.
You of course do not go and catch 30 bass in an afternoon like some lakes. However most would rather have this than normal neighborhood lake that has catch and realese restircitions with nothing but dinks all day. I hope they can have a budget approved to add a few pure genetic bass each year to makeup for the lack of recurtment.