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#154989 - 03/24/09 08:01 PM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: JET]
bobad Offline
Lunker

Registered: 06/02/05
Posts: 2365
Loc: Eunice, Louisiana
 Originally Posted By: JET
We will however chech each suction side connection for possible air leaks including the 4" vent line.... what would be the easiest way to check for small air leaks on the suction side ??....water perhaps and/or soap bubbles ?
JET


My siphon was only 4", and gave me fits until I got lucky and stopped the leak. It would siphon tons of water, then gradually slow down and eventually stop.

I still don't know where the leak was, I dabbed gorilla glue around all the joints on the suction side.

I tried to pressure test mine, but as someone already said, it's a problem, even with 4" pipe. I can just imagine what a pain the 12" stuff is. If you was careful joining it, maybe you'll get lucky. With 12" pipe, it won't take long to draw down anyway.
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Shrimp

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#155062 - 03/25/09 01:06 AM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: bobad]
cliffbrook Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 274
Loc: Marshall County Iowa
agree completely

"It would siphon tons of water, then gradually slow down and eventually stop."

PICTURES

i want to see this thing, monster, sucking

PLEASE

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#155158 - 03/25/09 04:55 PM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: cliffbrook]
JET Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 23
Loc: TX
03/25/09 3:40pm Wednesday, ok the 12 " siphon worked yesterday during the rain and it appears to have had a very high flow via outlet evidenced by the ground,plants, etc.
It dropped the level below the 4" vent piping approximately 1" which is where I set the original vent pipe from the normal water level. I did not get to see it but hope to see it in action at next opportunity.

I know a way to check for vacuum leaks, same way I did it at my Shell Plant in Deer Park texas...... tape the joints above ground (screwed and glued) poke a small hole in the tape on the side, not on top and use soap water/bubbles at hole, if it sucks the water/soap in the hole, it is pulling vacuum and leaking...I did not have to end up doing this but it will work if you need to do it.

I have pictures but need to get the time to figure out how to import them into this forum... getting time is my delay right now...

JET
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Jimmy Terrell (JET)

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#155927 - 03/30/09 10:38 AM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: JET]
Rangersedge Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 835
Loc: Illinois
Great advice above. Sounds like that should work.

When we did our 14" pipe for the sediment basins, we marked full insertion depth, had a backhoe bucket against one end and used a trackhoe bucket to push the next joint in fully. Obviously, you need someone really good on the trackhoe; but the joints are heavy enough that you can't really put much pressure against them to insert fully by hand. If you only get the joint in there a little bit before the glue works, you're pretty much done.


Edited by Rangersedge (03/30/09 10:45 AM)
Edit Reason: Responded and then realized already done. Hadn't read second page.
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#156363 - 04/01/09 01:01 PM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: cliffbrook]
JET Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 23
Loc: TX
ok, I took pictures of 12" PVC siphon sysTem and failure but was unable to get them from photobucket into the forum, finally gave up and asked sharon at pondboss to put them in via a e-mail I sent her yesterday.

I do not see them posted yet but perhaps I missed them or she has not had time to post them yet..

New Question also for Forum............... my dam has rye grass planted on it and it is the kind that will not come back so, my question is this:
Can I distribute bermuda grass seed (common) over the existing rye grass that is growing and get good germination and growth ?
I looked in forum q&a but did not find this specific question or answer.
I intend to mow the rye grass short before spreading the seed with a yard type spreader, recommendation is 2 lb,s/1000 square feet and I plan to use double the rate. The Rye grass will begin to go away/burn once summer heat sits in and I do not want to leave dam without grass to prevent erosion.
I also intend to fertilize after spreading the seeds.
Waiting til early May to seed where temperatures are 70 degrees at night.
JET
_________________________
Jimmy Terrell (JET)

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#156373 - 04/01/09 02:20 PM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: JET]
Chuck Fikes Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/27/07
Posts: 25
Loc: Aubrey Texas
JET
Yes, you can seed over the Rye grass. We overseed baseball and soccer fields at 5-6 lbs per 1000 sq ft. Depending on where you are in Texas you can overseed a little earlier than May, but night time temps between 65-70 are best. In North Central Texas we have overseeded areas in early April with reasonable success.
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Asterperious

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#156411 - 04/01/09 05:23 PM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: JET]
Ric Swaim Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 1902
Loc: Surry Co NC
JET,
I would spread the bermuda seed before mowing. Fertilize & let the rye grow as tall as it will before mowing.
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If you can read this ... thank a teacher. Since it's in english ... thank our military!
Ric

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#156437 - 04/01/09 08:28 PM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: JET]
cliffbrook Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 274
Loc: Marshall County Iowa
how do we get Sharon to post these pictures? Administrators?

ok, his post is just dated april 1, and i probly wont be able to see till i get home....

thanx JET, I am looking forward to seeing some serious sucking

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#156486 - 04/01/09 11:04 PM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: cliffbrook]
JET Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 23
Loc: TX
found out that my e-mail did not go through earlier to Sharon, re-sent the pictures to her today via e-mail so she should post them next day or so.................JET

Why should I not mow rye grass before overseeding with bermuda, I thought the seed would distribute more evenly on short rye grass rather long rye grass that lays over .

please help me understand why ?


thanks JET
_________________________
Jimmy Terrell (JET)

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#156539 - 04/02/09 10:17 AM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: cliffbrook]
JET Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 23
Loc: TX
OK.......... the 12" siphon began siphoning this morning, I heard the noise from back porch at house which is approximately 200 to 250 yards away from the Dam. (04/02/09)

WATER FLOW WAS A FULL 12" STREAM SHOOTING OUT APPROXIMATELY 8 FOOT, NOTICED NO VIBRATION ON OUTLET PIPING AND/OR 45 DEGREE ELL,
THE 4 " VENT WAS SUCKING FULL FLOW OF WATER UP THE VENT AND INTO THE 12 PIPING, I RECORDED NOISES AT OUTLET AND VENT ON MY CELL PHONE.

WILL SEND PICTURES TO SHARON TODAY VIA E-MAIL TO POST ON FORUM UNDER 12" SIPHON.

DID NOTICE THAT I NEED TO BRACE THE 4" VENT PIPE BETTER PER SHAKES WHEN IT BEGINS TO REACH LEVEL WHERE AIR WIL BE INTRODUCED INTO THE VENT PIPE, ONCE AIR BEGINS ENTRY, OUTLET FLOW SLOWLY BEGINS TO DECREASE TO NORMAL OUTLET FLOW STREAM.

AMAZING SITE......

PS... Two big Canadian Geese was swimming in the middle of the pond this morning also..suppose they came over to see the "show".

JET
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Jimmy Terrell (JET)

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#156565 - 04/02/09 12:05 PM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: JET]
bobad Offline
Lunker

Registered: 06/02/05
Posts: 2365
Loc: Eunice, Louisiana
Jet,

Posting pictures is deceptively easy. Once you have them posted on photobucket, it's cake.

In Photobucket, click the picture you want to upload to Pond Boss.

Below and to the right of the picture, you will notice 3 lines:

HTML Code
HTML Thumb
IMG Code

"IMG Code" is the one you would normally use for posting inline pictures.

Just click inside the box just to the right of the Img Code label, and the word "Copied" should quickly appear and disappear.

That's it!

Now,,, all you have to do is paste the code into your Pond Boss post by pressing the CTRL = V key combo.

When you paste it, the short line of code will look like this:

[XIMG]http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c394/bobad/Picture001.jpg[/IMG]

Note that I placed a red "X" in front of "IMG" so you could see what the code looks like instead of seeing the actual picture.

Try it, I wanna see that siphon in action! \:\)


Edited by bobad (04/02/09 12:14 PM)
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Shrimp

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#156570 - 04/02/09 12:32 PM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: JET]
Sharon DuBose Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 3
Loc: TX
These photos are from JET ... Photobucket Photobucket Photobucket Photobucket Photobucket Photobucket Photobucket Photobucket Photobucket Photobucket Photobucket Photobucket Photobucket

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#156618 - 04/02/09 08:28 PM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: Ric Swaim]
JET Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 23
Loc: TX
ok Ric...help me understand why I should not mow and let rye grass get high as possible before re-seeding over the existing rye grass. again I thought if I mowed the rye short before I re-seeded with bermuda seed it would let the very fine seed better distribute evenly within the exsiting rye grass on the Dam.

The existing rye grass is anywhere between 12" long and laying down to 1" long at different places on the Dam presently. Longer grass blows in the wind presently.

Bermuda seed is expensive and I want to do it right/correct the first time to be as cost effective as possible, prevent Dam erosion the best way I can between spring and summer seasons and end up with a even grass spread/stand on the existing Damk to prevent needless/expensive erosion.

mow before re-seeding over existing rye grass on Dam or not and why ????

JET..........on hold until I better understand re-seeding over rye with bermuda seed as permanent grasses on my Dam.

JET 04/02/09 7:30 PM Thursday .............others (experienced) please chime in..............
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Jimmy Terrell (JET)

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#156784 - 04/03/09 07:29 PM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: JET]
Ric Swaim Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 1902
Loc: Surry Co NC
Jet, it's my experience germanation is better the more seed to soil contact you have. Seed distributed on top of grass clippings doesn't seem to me to be the best method. Of course drilling would give the highest prob. of success. But putting the seed down & clippings on top of it should give much greater soil to seed contact than the other way around.
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Pond Boss Subscriber & Books Owner


If you can read this ... thank a teacher. Since it's in english ... thank our military!
Ric

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#156799 - 04/03/09 09:58 PM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: Ric Swaim]
burgermeister Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
Jet, I am trying to understand the self siphoning system. Is that water coming in or going out of the big pipe with the vent over it? When does the siphon start, when the big pipe is completely submerged?
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#156824 - 04/04/09 06:54 AM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: burgermeister]
cliffbrook Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 274
Loc: Marshall County Iowa
i cant wait to see this. 8 feet high out of 12 inch pipe? i bet you can hear that. wow nellie.

thats the sound like some serious sucking, i mean blowing.

JET, i have always heard that the rye will prevent germination...but i really dont have experience with overseeding rye or with those texass conditions. and i spose its starting to get pretty warm down that way. and dont really know bermuda, i have done dwarf buffalo ($$$) and dwarf tall fescue ($), and of those the dwarf tall fescue is the way to go, but getting tired of that now. and since i cant see pictures, dont know how shorter warm season grasses would go, but that would be choice fo natural low maintenance wildlife ground cover just everything. you know stuff like sporabulus, little blue stem, grama grass, and maybe there are some others in your area. i will scout bermuda, what type of rye do you have in there now?

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#156825 - 04/04/09 07:24 AM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: cliffbrook]
cliffbrook Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 274
Loc: Marshall County Iowa
ok, that didnt take long, lots of choices with that bermuda grass

from the site, its good news bad news

The down side to Bermuda grass is the aggressive quality that also makes it so popular. Flower beds or other adjacent areas can be over-run if not kept in check by constant edging or applications of herbicides. This is one of the grasses that can "return from the dead" if not completely killed the first time due to its extensive root system and just digging it up without getting rid of the roots will not solve the problem. Repeated applications of a glyphosphate such as Roundup are usually required to kill Bermuda.

so dont see much about overseeding warm in existing rye, but alot of overseeding rye in warm, which may mean i am right (about rye reducing germination) and the warms are perrenials....but you probly know alot more about that bermuda

interestingly, for the pond/fish guys, i have to type and cant copy and paste, "annual ryegrass is used as a fish food in China, grass eating species of carp are fed hand harvested annual ryegrass. " so you could bale the stuff and feed bales to fish....but maybe thats just the people selling the rye grass talking. we all know how those grass carp can eat themselfs out of pond and house

JET, maybe you can do some bermuda and some the more natural prairie grasses?

but 12" water blowing 8 feet high, you are my hero, woohoo, i gotta see this, i should be seeing it on wednesday next.
thanx

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#156828 - 04/04/09 09:07 AM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: cliffbrook]
eddie_walker Offline
Lunker

Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 773
Loc: Just North of Tyler, Texas
I have a little bit of experience with bermuda seed here in East Texas and acidic, clay soils. The seed comes in two forms, hulled and un-hulled. If you have good conditions, the the hulled is the way to go. The seed is like a walnut,but smaller. The hulled has the shell removed so you are just buying the seed. Soil temps should be around 80 degrees and of course, you will want water. I've found that very little of it washes away when it rains, but it does sort of start off patchy.

If conditions are not perfect, the the un-hulled is the way to go. The seed will sit there until conditions are right and the hull rots off. This is what I've done when planting late in the year, or early in the year.

When buying seed, be sure to know how much seed you are buying. All of the big stores sell bermuda seed, but most are between 25 to 50% seed, with the rest of the bad being filler material. I've shoped around and found farm supply store that sell pure seed by the pound. I can buy one pound or one hundred pounds from them. They just weigh it out for me. This has been proven to be the very best price per pound of pure bermuda seed that I've found.

As for your rye grass, I'd cut it down and wait about a week, then spread the bermuda seed. Once you spread the seed, you can't cut again until the bermuda is established. When young, it will look just like the rye grass. It will take a month or so for it to go from single blades to sending out runners. Once you get those clumps of bermuda with runners spreading out, you are set. Then it's just a matter of time for it to take over everything. Ignore the rye grass, it will be dead in a few months anyway.

When spreading the bermuda, I mix two parts dry sand with one part seed in my broadcast spreader. The sand helps thin out the amount of seed you spread, but is also very helpful in letting you know where you've been. When doing an acre or more, it's real easy to forget exactly where you've already spread the seed, even when looking at your tractors tire tracks!!! The sand shows up good and tells you for sure if you've done an area or not.

On the topic of sealing your screws and possible leaks, use roofing sealant. It will cost a little more then silicone, but is allot better. There are several to choose from, but my favorite is the Henry brand sold at Home Depot. I've had good luck with other brands too, but Henry is really some good stuff. It will stick to the pipe and seal it like nothing else. It will also stick to your fingers and provide some good fun in getting it off of you!! hahaha

Great pictures. That's really impressive to see the water coming out of that 12 inch pipe. One thing that you mentioned is the vigration of the pipes. While PVC has considerable flex to it, failure does occure from movement. Larger pipe is more prone to this then smaller pipe. It's why most larger water pipes, 2 inch and bigger, are gasketed. This allows them to slide in and out of each other and retain their seal without breaking.

On your system, I would put concrete around the end of that pipe and set it on a footing to lock it into place. I can buy a one yard buggy of premixed concrete from United Rentals and pull it with my truck. That's what I'd use and about how much concrete I think it will take to really lock it into position. Dig a hole, build the forms and add a little rebar. If you buy sacks, be sure to mix them first. Don't do the fence post routing and dump them into the hole and add water to the top. While this works for fence posts, the strength of the concrete done that way is half of what it is if properly mixed concrete. Properly mixed means as dry as possible. The more water you add, the weaker the mix will be.

Good luck, pond looks amazing.

Eddie
_________________________
Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.

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#156836 - 04/04/09 09:47 AM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: burgermeister]
JET Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 23
Loc: TX
the siphon works like any siphon, but this one has following:
inlet is @ 14 foot down under water on pond side, has screen on inLet to prevent plugging but holes large enough to prevent becoming plugged. this helps to keep o2 level up in water and does not lose pond bloom since taken off bottom.
the 4" vent on inlet allows air to enter
the downslope piping with the 45 ell at bottom is 4 foot lower than the inlet 12" tee on pond side and the 12" pipe across dam crown has a 1" drop going toward the backslope side.
gravity flow occurs at normal pond level but 2 things has to occur for siphon action to begin #1...pond level rises above vent pipe, and #2, 12" becomes liquid full & siphon begins, water is now full flow in 12" inlet and also going up 4" vent and blowing out back pipe.
pond level begins to lower, level gets below 4" vent, air goes into 4" and breaks siphon...
normal pond level is approximately 1" below the 4" vent pipe.
hope this helps.......

JET
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Jimmy Terrell (JET)

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#156860 - 04/04/09 11:24 AM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: JET]
burgermeister Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
The siphon principle is clear, thanks. I guess I am not seeing the system correctly. Is the pipe coming out of the white ell into the pond blue?
Reason I am so interested is I just drove 7 hrs. to siphon down my pond which overflowed the dam and I want to construct one out of 6 inch and a 2 inch vent. Just not seeing the part that goes into the pond very clearly.
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#156864 - 04/04/09 11:44 AM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: eddie_walker]
JET Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 23
Loc: TX
Thanks Eddie, I will try this on the Bermuda seed planting process since you live in East Texas and have experience in this area. I live in big city of Tennessee Colony, Texas (haha)
I did install concrete footings and supports under the pressure/stress points of the downslope line and connections.
I have noticed no vibration at all on any of the 12 " line or connections but I do need to better support the 4" vent piping on inlet per vibrates and jumps some when level going down and close to point of allowing air entry to break siphon.

I would like to thank all of you that offered advice and information on my siphon, ways to improve, fish stocking and grass on Dam. all of you have been quite helpful.



Thanks again, JET
_________________________
Jimmy Terrell (JET)

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#156945 - 04/05/09 01:39 AM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: JET]
eddie_walker Offline
Lunker

Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 773
Loc: Just North of Tyler, Texas
JET,

I went to an auction in Tennessee Colony a few years ago. It's a nice area.

Eddie
_________________________
Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.

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#156950 - 04/05/09 07:58 AM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: eddie_walker]
cliffbrook Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 274
Loc: Marshall County Iowa
woohoo, i gotta see this......

i bet video is amazing too, earplugs?


Edited by cliffbrook (04/05/09 07:59 AM)

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#156952 - 04/05/09 08:31 AM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: burgermeister]
lassig Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/04/09
Posts: 941
Loc: Schuyler Co, IL
 Originally Posted By: burgermeister
The siphon principle is clear, thanks. I guess I am not seeing the system correctly. Is the pipe coming out of the white ell into the pond blue?
Reason I am so interested is I just drove 7 hrs. to siphon down my pond which overflowed the dam and I want to construct one out of 6 inch and a 2 inch vent. Just not seeing the part that goes into the pond very clearly.


This is what I am going to build into my pond this summer and should be exactly what you are looking for.




Edited by Chris Steelman (04/06/09 10:28 AM)
Edit Reason: made picture smaller
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#156964 - 04/05/09 10:26 AM Re: 12" schedule 40 PVC Siphon System Failure [Re: lassig]
JET Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 23
Loc: TX
Yes, my system is very much like yours and I also have the trash guard on the end into the pond.
beginning on pond side there is a 12" tee, short 12" pipe, 22 degree ell down into pond, 12" pipe, then 22 degree ell up, 12" pipe and finally the trash guard on end which is about 12 to 14 foot down into pond. pond depth is approximately 18 foot deep at dam area.

materials came from Macon Georgia, pondampiping.com

by the way, my vent comes off the top of the 12" tee (same as yours will ) and remains 4" all the way, have it set to be 1" above normal pond level.

my experience (thanks to the forum members for all the advice and suggestions) so far says make sure you get all joints properly primed and glued per the directions on the cans. that is what contributed to my original failure....12" schedule 40 pvc hard to work with and mucho heavy...yours should not be quite so bad.

JET
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Jimmy Terrell (JET)

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