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In addition to "Bob's Up-Stream Theory" I think the tornado of various sizes can feasably move fish from water to land or water to water. If a tornado can transport all sorts of debris why not a few surface dewelling fish? Anyone seen evidence of this?
I want to address George's Grandpas's isolated pond fish story. I GSF and mudcats are very low DO tolerant. It is feasable when the ponds dried up there were one or two tiny isolated muddy wet areas that did not completely dry to the point of subsurface cracked dusty dirt. From a distance or maybe even a casual close up view the pond was "dried up". Eventual refilling with rain and watershed drainage revived these estivating fish.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/04/09 09:34 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
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I've never first hand seen it, but I have seen news reports where fish and frogs were picked up in a tornado and dropped miles away... Usually dead though... Maybe it was males and females and when they hit the pond they busted open, the eggs were fertilized and whamo!
I'm still going with flooding event migration and the next door neighbor stocking theory. Especially when it comes to GSF and bullheads.
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I want to address George's Grandpas's isolated pond fish story. I GSF and mudcats are very low DO tolerant. It is feasable when the ponds dried up there were one or two tiny isolated muddy wet areas that did not completely dry to the point of subsurface cracked dusty dirt. From a distance or maybe even a casual close up view the pond was "dried up". Eventual refilling with rain and watershed drainage revived these estivating fish. Bill, this is a fun topic and the “natural” fish-stocking question will likely never be resolved. It brings back memories of a young city boy, spending summers in the country, experiencing life the present generation will not understand. My most lasting memory is sloshing in the mud barefooted and stepping on a mud cat … ouch. It may be difficult for many in other parts of the country to imagine what life was like to eke out an existence on a hard scrabble, dry land cotton patch with neighbors sometimes miles away. Cotton was king and mules were essential livestock, in need of water from small tanks. The tanks were shallow and dug by a mule drawn “slip”, which was a simple flat scoop with a lever that one man could dump the dirt. I recall watching one being dug – how did the fish arrive? Interesting.
N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds Original george #173 (22 June 2002)
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This is really a great subject as we try and figure out how the Gizzard Shad made it into our lake????????????? The million dollar question. We are a closed system, no other lake flows in, we flow out to the county drainage ditch, I will have to investigate next winter what other water bodies flow into the drainage ditch upstream (currently busy planning MY SUMMER OF FUN!). We know the drainage ditch valve was left open so the crappy water was coming in, that would be (1) guess. No. (2) would be an idiot used them for bait, No (3) at some point in the past they were in the mix when someone stocked the lake, No. (4) came in on a Swan, Duck, Heron, Cormorant, Seagull's feet? No. (5) like the idea of the birds dropping a fish here and there. And this is my question: We have 6 lakes within a one square mile area (some flow into each other)and our underground aquifer feeds all six lakes, can the fish travel through the underground springs into the lakes? LOVE YOU GUYS, LOVE YOU GUYS, LOVE YOU GUYS!
Last edited by 2catmom; 04/05/09 07:50 AM. Reason: PLEASE DON'T WHACK THE HERONS, THEY ARE SO COOL!
HUSBAND AND CAT MISSING -$100 REWARD FOR THE CAT! I subscribe too, but tried and failed at the fish logo.
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I know it was said in jest earlier but can you imagine how cool a mythbusters show would be all about fishing tales and myths? I remember seeing pictures of thousands of frogs that had been picked up in tornadoes so why not a few fish high in the water column? That's a very interesting theory I hadn't considered. I think eggs getting stuck into the wet fur of a mammal (beaver/otter/muskrat rooting around) or the feathers of a bird is the most likely way for eggs to be safely transferred from one waterbody to another. If the carrier had backed into the object with which the eggs were adhered to the eggs would tuck into this wet layer and the eggs wouldn't need to be sticky to be held in place. I think that wind speed alone would dry out and/or tear any otherwise exposed eggs off the leg of a bird as it flew. only my $0.02 which is sadly worth even less (0.016 USD) to my friends down south
Words have the power to both destroy and heal, when words are both true and kind they can change our world...
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In addition to "Bob's Up-Stream Theory" I think the tornado of various sizes can feasibly move fish from water to land or water to water. If a tornado can transport all sorts of debris why not a few surface dwelling fish? Anyone seen evidence of this? While I have not seen a tornado moving fish I once saw a small dust devil (3-4 ft in diameter) move onto a lake and suck a large number of water droplets strait up into the sky. This small dust devil came within 20 ft of the boat and sucked a lot of water off the lake.
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I guess it's "possible" for eggs to be transported from one place to another. However, I think there is almost zero chance of survival without parental care. Bugs would eat them and silt would cover them. Ponds aren't petri dishes.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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I don't buy into the fish egg thing.
I do believe in the intentional stocking of fish by birds.
I also wonder if when you see a larger LMB with a gouge wound in it's back, that the heron was not trying to eat the bass, but instead was trying to protect & preserve it's stash of fish for eating.
We've had enough witness accounts of birds dropping live fish in waters where it was not just, I believe, where the bird dropped the fish by 'accident.'
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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...I do believe in the intentional stocking of fish by birds.
The more I think about it, the more I agree with this statement.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Great discussion! I, too, have always bought the "myth or not" of eggs on birds legs.
But, I keep coming back to the many golf course ponds that have BG and LMB in them (at least in Georgia). These ponds aren't connected to any water source and never have been. Unless the fish are migrating through sprinkler systems or hatch from golf balls...how did they get in there?
If you're too scared to throw that bait where the fish are, why did you tie it on?
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Al, I think that it is guys like me.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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I bought a duck at the local flea market, euthanized it, and cut a leg off. You're a sick, sick man. A combination of Kevorkian and Dahmer in the making!
"Only after sorrow's hand has bowed your head will life become truly real to you; then you will acquire the noble spirituality which intensifies the reality of life. I go to an all-powerful God. Beyond that I have no knowledge--no fear--only faith."
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I have gizzard shad in my pond. The nearest lake with gizzard shad is 9 miles away by air. I still have no idea how they got in my pond. Gizzard shad are difficult to keep alive even if you try to. I have a breeding population, so more than one made it in there. All fish I have stocked have been hauled and hand sorted and stocked by me. There is an obvious difference between gizzard shad and other fish, even when very small, so I still have no explanation as to how they arrived. I'm located at nearly the highest point in the county and there hasn't been a flood at my place ever. My watershed is 100% ag fields. There is a seasonal creek 300' away and 8' lower than my pond that my 8" overflow connects dump in to. My overflow pipe has never been more than 1/3 full. I find it extremely unlikely that a fish could/would swim 300' upstream in 2 or 3" of rushing water in the pipe and it's even less likely that it would be a gizzard shad.
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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I believe that there is a top secret government research facility in Texas code named Area fifty one and eleven sixteenths. At this top secret facility the military is training chupacabras to move fish from pond to pond. This covert program is code named Operation Angry Weasel.
I could tell all of you how we move GSF from location to location but then I'd have to kill all of you and I don't have time for all of the paperwork that would generate.
JHAP ~~~~~~~~~~ "My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." ...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
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...I do believe in the intentional stocking of fish by birds.
The more I think about it, the more I agree with this statement. Me too ...
N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds Original george #173 (22 June 2002)
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Area 51 11/16!
I'm dyin' here.
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
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I don't buy into the fish egg thing.
I do believe in the intentional stocking of fish by birds.
I also wonder if when you see a larger LMB with a gouge wound in it's back, that the heron was not trying to eat the bass, but instead was trying to protect & preserve it's stash of fish for eating.
We've had enough witness accounts of birds dropping live fish in waters where it was not just, I believe, where the bird dropped the fish by 'accident.' I don't know what I believe. Yes I do. I believe in nature. All creatures have evolved complex survival strategies over millions of years. It doesn't take intelligence to repeat a complex sequence of behaviors. The bird may not even know why he is doing what he does, because he is hard wired to do it. Some of the occurrences of fish seeding may be totally accidental. We keep discussing the bird's survival strategy, but we shouldn't overlook the fish. Nearly all animals and plants have obvious strategies to disperse their genes far and wide. If we delve deeply enough into it, we may find that fish also have strategies to spread their genes beyond small, isolated ponds. These strategies may not be so obvious. Symbiosis is very common among animals, both primitive and higher. Some forms of symbiosis is subtle (as in parasite-host relationships) and new forms are occasionally discovered.
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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I am still not sold on the birds stocking new ponds intentionally theory, but I think it is plausible... Just not sure a bird is really capable of that much thought. I think birds accidentally drop fish into new ponds without a doubt.
There are lots of guys out there who love to move fish from pond to pond. When I was a teenager, I did it all the time. I bet I stocked 20 ponds that had no fish in them. The unknowing probably thought to themselves, how the heck did those fish get here?
There are two ponds in my neighborhood that I currently live in. One still has no fish in it, which will not be the case here soon. The other had no fish in it up until last year when I started stocking forage fish in it. Someone not knowing, might come across those ponds in a couple years and go, "How the heck did that pond ever get fish in it?"
99% of the time, viable fish populations come to a pond through flooding events or human stocking. The other 1% might be accounted for by accidental through birds, animals etc...
Last edited by CJBS2003; 04/06/09 05:13 PM.
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Sounds like someone is a habitual stocker. I guess it beats being a habitual stalker.
"Only after sorrow's hand has bowed your head will life become truly real to you; then you will acquire the noble spirituality which intensifies the reality of life. I go to an all-powerful God. Beyond that I have no knowledge--no fear--only faith."
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
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Sounds like someone is a habitual stocker. I guess it beats being a habitual stalker. Guilty as charged and proud of it! A pond without fish is like a mug without beer!
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OK: Any thoughts on if these fish can travel through the underground springs (aquifer) in a one square mile area with 6 ponds/lakes in that area?
HUSBAND AND CAT MISSING -$100 REWARD FOR THE CAT! I subscribe too, but tried and failed at the fish logo.
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I would say it is possible.
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Only if the aquafier flows without any restrictions. Most of the aquafiers that I know of flow thru porus substrate, and it acts like a filter.
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Sounds like someone is a habitual stocker. I guess it beats being a habitual stalker. Guilty as charged and proud of it! A pond without fish is like a mug without beer! I couldnt agree more.I always have beer when Im moving fish from one pond to another. And dont anyone let slip the secret location of our operation to JHAP.If it really exists,which Im not admitting to anything.
I subscribe Some days you get the dog,and some days he gets you.Every dog has his day,and sometimes he has two!
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