Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations redear hybrid?

Good evening all,
I will be picking up my hybrid Bluegill tomorrow morning, so I went over to the pond to do one last "look around", and I noticed that there are hundreds of snails attached to the concrete wall that runs down one side of the pond. Naturally this has got me thinking about Redear, but I don't want to add any since I will be managing the hybrids to control any reproduction, and I certainly don't want any more female sunfish in there if I can help it. This leads to my question... has anyone crossed a male redear with a female green sunfish? Redear are usually bigger than bluegill, would this translate in the cross to create an even bigger hybrid? The male bg x female gsf yields mostly males, do you suppose this would hold true for the redear/ gsf cross? anybody have any info, or pics of these hybrids? The possibility of a 2-pound plus, limited reproducing, snail devouring sunfish has piqued my curiosity!

Yes, it is possible for them to cross. There was a study done on this hybrid which can be found here: http://www.tws-west.org/transactions/Hallerman%20Philipp%20Pasdar.pdf

I am not aware of them being available commercially but perhaps others on here may know of a source?

Take a look and then ask questions. mRES X fGSF = 70%m , mGSF X fRES = 50%m .

HYBRIDIZATION OF FISHES IN NORTH AMERICA
(FAMILY CENTRARCHIDAE)
by

W.F. CHILDERS
Illinois Natural History Survey
Urbana, Illinois
U.S.A.


4.1 Sex Ratios of F1 hybrids
Sexually mature F1 hybrids were collected from each population and sexed. Of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids, seven were predominately males (RB, BR, and BG were 97 percent males; WG were 84 percent males; and RG, GB, and BW were approximately 70 percent males), two were approximately 50 percent males (GR and RW), and one was predominately female (GW was 16 percent males). Ricker (1948) determined the sex of 428 BR F1 hybrids in Indiana and found them to be 97.7 percent males.

In this paper R refers to red-ear sunfish, B to bluegill, G to green sunfish, and W to warmouth. Matings between individuals of different species are designated to P1 crosses and the resultant hybrids are designated as F1 hybrids. F2 hybrids are those produced by mating an F1 male with an F1 female. The P1 cross of a male bluegill with a female green sunfish is designated B × G and the resultant hybrids are designated BG F1 hybrids; GB F1 designates the reciprocal hybrids.



4.2 Reproductive success of hybrids
The reproductive success of each of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids was investigated in one or more ponds. The occurrence and abundance of F2 hybrids were determined by seining, trapping, shocking, poisoning or draining the ponds after the F1 hybrids were one or more years of age. RB, BR, and BG failed to produce abundant F2 generations when in ponds which contained no other species of fishes. In contrast to these results, BR F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 generations in two ponds in Indiana (Ricker 1948). The other seven kinds of F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Three of the seven kinds of F1 hybrids which produced large F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes were also stocked in ponds with largemouth bass. RG F1 hybrids and GB F1 hybrids, when stocked with largemouth bass, produced only a few F2 hybrids. No F2 hybrids were found in the pond stocked with BW F1 hybrids and largemouth bass. WG F2 hybrids and GW F2 hybrids were stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Both of these F2 hybrids produced large F3 populations.
_________________________

This is from this publication: http://www.michigandnr.com/PUBLICATIONS/PDFS/ifr/ifrlibra/technical/reports/2003-3tr.pdf


Redear sunfish hybrids in newly stocked
waters were robust and exhibited fast growth, as
determined by growth analysis using scales.
They have been observed guarding nests during
spawning season; however, it is doubtful that
many of them are fertile (John Epifanio, Illinois
Natural History Survey - personal communication).
Childers and Bennett (1961) attempted to
produce hybrids by isolating males of one
species (bluegill, redear sunfish, or green
sunfish) with females of another (six possible
combinations) in ponds that contained no other
fish. Each of the F1 crosses was attempted two
or more times. Only the green sunfish x bluegill
and redear sunfish x green sunfish crosses
produced significantly large numbers of F1
hybrids. When F1 hybrids were isolated in
ponds, the redear sunfish x green sunfish
reproduced successfully; however, the bluegill x
redear sunfish combination failed to reproduce
successfully.

My Father-in-law has them in his pond, and has for at least 10 years. He lives in East central Indiana(Portland). I'm sure he bought them from a fish supplier, not sure which one. Next time I see him will ask. They grow quite large and will take most everything thrown at them. He had a major kill a few years back(said runoff from his lawn right after spraying) and just re-stocked last fall, all hybrid Redear no Bass or CC

I'd be interested in seeing a picture... I am not sure I have ever seen a RESxGSF hybrid in person and can't find a picture on the internet.

No pics handy, but here's a link to a hatchery that sells them.
I think the ones my Father -in-law has are the RESxGSF hybrid. His have larger mouths and really yellow fins, more like they have the GSF gene in them.


http://www.loganhollow.com/species_hrsunfish.html

Their hybrid is a RESxBG cross. Looks like a nice hatchery that sells them.

Well I put 200 HBG in the cage this morning, so far I have only found one dead fish, so I think I'm off to a good start. I checked on them just over an hour ago, and they were eating aquamax 500 quite well. I want to thank everyone who responded to my inquiry on the RESxGSF hybrids, I have read through the information that was recommended, and it appears that the percentage of males to females, although lower than the standard BGxGSF cross, is still acceptable if a predatory species is present. It appears the studies done thus far have been more concerned with reproductive viability, rather than growth potential. Does anyone have any info on a program that shows maximum growth attained over a given time period? mobetter, do you think you could talk your father-in-law into snapping a pic the next time he catches one, then posting it here? I would greatly appreciate it. BTW- thanks for the link, not many places have RESxBG hybrids, interesting stuff.

sprkplug, are the hybrids you got RESxGSF or BGxGSF?

CJBS, the fish i've got are the "regular" BGxGSF. Until mobetter's post I wasn't aware of a source for the RESxGSF hybrids.

By the way... I pulled two more dead fish out of the cage tonight.... hope this doesn't continue!

Good deal, keep us updated on how your fish fare... I am sure you will see some great growth rates. I am interested in some pictures when they get more size. Particularly interested in what genetics show up more, the BG or the GSF...

you got it... when they get some size to em', I'll post a pic or two...

Sounds good!

If I was you and I lost a few more I still wouldn't be that concerned. After the seining, handling by the grower and then again by the retailer if he is different, and then transport it's not unusual to lose a few fish. It's just a very stressful situation for them. If they are feeding that is a good sign. If we stay cold for a while and newly purchased fish don't want to feed that is when you will lose a fair number to fungus. The best scenario for stocking a pond (or cage) is when water temps are rising. Unfortunately of course we can't control the weather.

What part of the state are you in Spark plug?

I live in south-central Indiana, about 20 miles west of Bloomington. And thanks for the encouragement! I had water temps of 58 degrees a few days ago, and now this!

Don't worry if they were feeding soon after you got them you should be fine. However if your water temp drops below 50 F. I would hold off until it gets back above 50 F.

I spent a year at IU in Bloomington so I know the area a little. Couldn't afford to go back but didn't think it was a better education than a community college I got my fisheries degree in. I kept thinking where are the profs? I'm paying this kind of money to be taught by students?

Whoops I off track!

5-10% would be normal losses IMO. Pray for some good weather and all will be good. But as Cecil said, if they are feeding that is a great sign.

Thanks guys, now if I could just get rid of those **** geese....


"C'mon warm water!!!"

How many?

I like old fashion lead poisoning, errrr um... steel, tungsten iron, bismuth?

I've only got 2 pair on this pond right now, although there are several on the ponds nearby. I keep envisioning them swimming in the cage, eating the floating aquamax, then discovering a couple hundred little bluegill trapped in a "buffet" right below. (there is no top to the cage, but it does extend a foot above the surface). CJBS, I like how you think... I too am contemplating "discouragement with extreme prejudice". On another note, I removed 3 more dead fish this evening, I wish they would eat more than they are right now.I've read on here about pre-soaking the feed, is this to make it sink faster? I might try that tomorrow night.

sprkplug, If your worried about the Geese eating your bluegill you can relax, I'm pretty sure they don't eat fish, now merganser or cormorants then you got a problem.

Also saw this, but don't know if it works.
http://www.awaywithgeese.com/awgweb.nsf?Open

I honestly don't know if the Canadian Geese will eat fish or not. I do well remember that as a youngster we had a farm pond in the pasture that was loaded with stunted bluegill. We also had a couple of the big white domestic geese, and those suckers would walk right up next to you and wait for you to catch a fish. In those days, runt bluegill found their way up on the bank, not back into the pond. They would fight to see which one would devour the fish first! That's the basis for my fear of geese, although you may very well be right about the canadians.