Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose worried about overpopulation

I am going to get my fingerlings this weekend and have been doing lots of reading. Thanks for all the great posts and threads.

I just finished reading the MSU "Managing Michigan Ponds for Sports fishing," and am now really nervous about stocking BG. The book warns over and over about BG causing overpopulation in northern ponds. They say to not stock them because the LMB will not keep up with them. I have not seen this talked about on the threads, but want to know from experienced pondmeisters what they think.

Coach - give us a description of your pond here. That will help our discussion. Meanwhile, I can tell you that northern ponds certainly will support the LMB-BLG combination. When I first got to SD in the late 80s, I heard the same thing. I think the reason was that bluegills typically reproduce at age 1 and the largemouths don't reproduce until age 2. Thus, the bluegills might have gotten out of hand. Let us know your pond size, water transparency, vegetation, etc.

It is a new pond, just dug last summer. It is a half and acre with max depth of 15 feet. there are three points, each at four feet deep with 8 foot depth surrounding all three. the banks all slope at a 2:1 ratio, except for a small beach area at 4:1. Currently I can see about 3 feet into the water. Based on the other ponds in the area, this seems about the right depth. so far there is no vegetation in the pond, but I have put several structures and christmas trees in.

Coach, In addition to what Dr Dave provided are numerous reasons why BG will become overpopulated in ponds both north and south.
1. Remember the information or pond data that was used for writing the MSU booklet was from earlier years when catch and release bass fishing was not very popular. IN that bass were harvested or targeted and BG were usually ignored. Today a different philosophy prevails among many anglers - bass catch and release often prevails. Many ponds thus become too numerous with bass.

2. The primary reason for BG overpopulation is too many bass were removed in the ponds before the 1st bass spawn was old enough to itself spawn. Again old angler philosophy that is not so prevelant today.

3. BG overpopulation is common in ponds that are too weedy and usually neglected.

4. Improper fish harvest is often responsible for BG overpopulation.

5. Sometimes but rarely the original stocking of LMB had poor survival and not enough bass survived to control BG.

6. Ponds where BG are overpopulated are mismanaged or not managed. A well managed pond where the INFORMED owner regularly checks and samples the fishery are never overpopulated with BG.

7. The data used for the statement you referred to in the MSU booklet did not come from ponds where the fish were regularly fed pellets by INFORMED pondowners. I am confident that the data for that conclusion came from poorly managed or neglected ponds.

IMO pond neglect and uninformed pond owners cause the overpopulation of BG in almost every case. The MSU pond booklet has some very good basic information, but IMO some of it is misleading or not well explained and written for novice pondowners with limited or no experience and limited ability to manage. The authors leave out some important information. It is a short booklet not a detailed treatsie of pond management. Remember it is written for the average, casual, sometimes absent or neglectful pond owner with a philosophy of stocking and let nature take its course combinded with generalized fishing. With proper management BG and LMB combination can produce a fabulous fishery. It has been proven many times even in MI.

The bass - BG fishery should be managed with one of three goals in mind: 1. trophy or large bass, 2. trophy BG, or 3. gereralized fishing with an "average" or normal size distribution. The MSU booklet did not discuss this newer philosophy of managing a Bass- BG pond. That concept is discussed in several of the newer State pond management guides (Ohio Pond Management Handbook is one of them, available online at ODNR website.). Others can provide some other links or suggestions.

Bill, thanks for the great reply. that makes me feel better. I have some of those feelings as I read the booklet because they didn't talk about aeration or pellet feeding, for example.

I am feeling more comfortable with going with BG and not HBG, but am wondering about adding RES or PS (if I can find them). Is it okay to mix all the different bluegil strains?

Yes I think you can mix them but depending on your pond conditions one of the panfish species will become dominate. The other will be secondary and maybe eventually need to be supplimentally stocked for it to keep a good presence in the pond. RES will struggle to survive MI winters - not impossible to have them but they will struggle in our growing zone. There are a couple small ponds near me that have only LMB and RES although the bass do not grow large. I know of no hatchery in MI that sells PS. It will also probably be difficult to locate RES in MI. Even pure BG are not that common in MI hatcheries. You will probably have to bring PS and or RES them in from angling a local lake. BE sure you are able to recognize PS from GSF or other hybrids. A few northern Ohio hatcheries carry RES. Often their stock is from AK or mid southern or south central areas.

CoachB, have you seen this list of fish suppliers, some have PS's.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mda/mda_aquaculture_192478_7.pdf

AP,
I have called most of the local ones on the list. Many of them are closed or do not return phone calls. the few that I did talk to don't carry PS even though they have them on the list. I think I will have to do what Bill suggests and catch a few from my local waters, put them in a tank and treat them, then release them in small groups.

Bill, I think I will not try the RES. BG with an occasional surprise PS sounds like fun.

Coach -- just one more thought after Bill's great answer and your next idea. Personally, I would wait until the largemouth bass are reproducing in your pond and then I would add the adult pumpkinseeds. Let the predators get established before you challenge them with one more panfish species to control. If you happen to be in a part of Michigan where redear sunfish will survive, you can have less concern about their overpopulation because they have a lower reproductive capacity than pumpkinseeds.

I talked to one fishery here and they said the DNR wouldn't let them sell RES north of I-94 (runs from Detroit to Chicago). I live only 4 miles north of that, so RES probably will do "okay". the last two winters here were a lot worse than the previous 7 that I have lived here. this year, we had ice from Thanksgiving until the beginning of March with no thaw. I think I will go with PS, but take a year to see if I can find someone who sells them. If not, I will start my slow stocking program next spring. Thanks for the input. If I went RES, should I also wait until next spring?

Coach, I think you would be safe to add the RES this year. Just my opinion, and maybe we can get a few other comments from the guys here. I have asked all over the country, and no one has ever documented a "stunted" redear sunfish population, to the best of my knowledge (and I have asked for years and years). Thus, I think you would be safe. The pumpkinseeds, on the other hand, are like bluegills in their multiple spawning capabilities. I would wait on them. They sure are a pretty fish, though, especially once those males get to about 8 inches!

thanks Dave,

You have been very helpful as i have been piecing this together. What should my mix of RES and BG be when I start? I have a half an acre.

Yes based on Dave's question about RES to me several years ago I started researching and ask FS if they had ever encountered a stunted RES or pond with over populated RES. Not one of them had ever encountered that and there is no written info that I can find that suggests that RES stunt or become over populated.

PS do quite often over populate and combining them with BG in unmanaged ponds makes matters worse.

Bill is absolutely correct in his statements. All of the state level pond mgt books (many as part of the Co-Op Ext service) were written for a different time and place ( for people with no concept of pond mgt and at a time when pond mgt as we now know it did not exist). In addition most were written to inform people how to manage the pond under a food source concept (feed hungry people). While they have good basic info they must be read in the light for which they were intended. Some of them are now being re-written in part to update the concepts with new info but still , because of the guidelines for which they are intended , can not suggest cutting edge methods because of the risk they carry for uninformed pond owners.

I would wait and get some RES or at least hold off on the PS until the LMB have the BG in control.

1:4 or 1:5 are typically used. Even if you go heavy on the Redears initially, they will be outnumbered by the BG after one or two reproductive seasons. I stocked RES/BG/HBG at 1:1:1; the HBG were not seen at all after 2-3 years, and the BG catch has always outnumbered the RES catch by about 20:1 (part of that is likely that BG tend to be more aggressive and easier to catch).

About the only time I can consistently catch RES is during the spawn. There are a few lakes I fish where you can find pockets outside of the spawn and get into them, but they are definitely very different from BG and other sunfish species.

Speaking about the RES spawn, in the local lake I can only consistently catch them when they are spawning, and that is AFTER the BG spawn.

Brian - As I stated in your other post....I got my wild/pure/reg BG from Imlay City. Did you get in touch with them? Don't know when they open up and I recall it did take a couple calls to get in touch with them. I had to keep up with them as the reg BG were tough to get...finally got in line at the right time and all's good. I'm just North of Ann Arbor and they delivered for a reasonable price.

I can atest to everything Bill Cody said! As a rookie pondmeister, I took his and many other's advice 3 years ago when I was stocking my ponds. I actively manage and hand feed 5 days a week so I'm constantly keeping an eye on the mix. A number of my LMB take pellets now!! I can see how quickly the BG population could get out of whack! I'm seeing that already so I'm on top of it. This year will be my first year of some serious culling.

I did take it a step further and added YP to complicate things but they are doing well and getting big. I even have a number which survived the spawn last year...we'll see if they made it thru the winter without being bass food...they were about 2-4" long last fall.

Last thought....somehow PS have showed up in the ponds also...either they came in with the reg BG delivery or one of the of other magical ways fish appear in ponds. My snail population was quite high the first year but between the PS and YP, it's almost nil now.....

Chuck

ChuckC thanks for the update. That is one thing many people forget to do - come back and report results. The results are a critical element to learning on the PB forum.

No magic there, you got some PS thrown in with your BG for good measure... Look at it as a bonus!

It sounds as if RES are often present, but not really seen. Are they needed to control snails? sounds like I should have them even though I will not catch many.

Chuck, Imlay said that they will not have BG until later in the spring. I am going with a fishery in Northern Ohio (1.5 hours from Ann Arbor). They have everything and I can get them this weekend. Bill has given me some wonderful advice on how to deal with the fishery and how to take care to not contaminate my pond. PB has saved me some much extra work and worry! I also am going to add YP at some point to see how they do.

Just trying to get the numbers of fish to stock set and then Saturday my pond comes alive (giddy laughing).

Chuck, How big is your pond and what did you stock?

Coach - We here at Pond Boss Forum hope you come back occassionally and let us know how your fish are doing. Keep stocking and harvest records and it will help with management decisions. Good Luck growing your fish.

Thanks again for the help. I will keep you posted as the first year goes along.

Imlay City opens April 1st. Last year I could not get my BG until late April, like Coach said. YP will be avail right away, and they told me LMB MIGHT be avail next week, if not then the week after.

This year I am going with a few YP, a few RES if they have any, about 25 LMB, and some GSH for LMB forage. Coach my pond is the same size as yours, last year was the first year for my pond and I added 150 BG, 150 YP, and a bunch of fatheads with good results

Brian

I'm working with 3 ponds...here is a link to my first post. Will give you an idea what I'm working with. It ended up being 4 pages before it petered out so there may be some info in it to help you....

First Post 2006

Pond 1 is .45ac (135 x 148)+/- Pear shaped, bisected diagonally, with approximately 2/3 15ft deep and 1/3 25ft deep at high water. Anticipate it to drop to about 11ft and 21ft(worst case) by fall 2006. Based on the soil cross section.

Pond 2 is .16ac +/- Slight heart shape but pretty much a circle(97 feet across) at the surface but really is a 25ft deep funnel. Same soil conditions so a 3-4 foot drop is also anticipated.

Pond 3 is about .12ac and was not renovated. It's about 8ft deep and drops to 5ft or so in summer.

Pond 1 stocked with 4gal FH Sep06...3gal FH, 300 wild BG, 50 YP Apr07...2gal FH May07...

Pond 2 stocked with 2gal FH Sep06...1gal FH, 50 wild BG, 150 YP Apr07...1gal FH May07...25 YP Sep07. The addt'l 25 YP in Sep07 were due to a small YP kill of 15 floaters during the summer of 07.

Neither pond was stocked with LMB or Golden shiners.....they were there shortly after ponds were renovated. I'm guessing they came from pond 3 via seasonal overflow drainage swale. So I have no idea how many LMB are in there but have been managing them based on visual estimation of 10 to 1 BG vs LMB ratio. It has worked well for the past 3 years.

Pond 1 is managed as a balanced LMB/BG fishery with YP as a bonus fish.

Pond 2 is managed as a YP heavy fishery for personal consumption. I keep a few LMB in the pond to mop up the BG the YP don't get to in this pond.

Pond 3 is really a bonus pond but very shallow where I put extra fish as I cull and am not ready to eat. It did have a complete fish kill this past winter. I mean everything!! Every size of LMB, BG, GSH, frogs..etc. I knew it was overpopulated....no big deal. Re-digging this one and adding aeration is on the list as $$$ allows.

Pond 1 and 2: Aerate at night and hand feed 5 days a week.

All in all I'm having very good sucess with my plans. YP are in the 10-12" range with a sucessful spawn last year. BG are all different sizes. I'm getting LMB in the 18"+ range with a careful culling of the 6-10" sizes. This year the BG are up for a good cull.

This is all thanks to everyone here on Pond Boss. Having smaller ponds as a rookie has also helped!!

That's the long answer to your question, Brian!!

Chuck

thanks for the info. It seems that there are a bunch of us in the area. maybe we should get together some time. I would love to see your ponds and pick your brain about aeration and maintaining YP with the LMB and BG.