Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Stocking recommendations, less than 1 acre

I saw Todd's post and thought this might be a good time to run the plan I am building by the experts.
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000485;p=1

The NCRS rep. and the dirt workers are still working on my pond design, but I am thinking it will come in just under an acre. I based my first stab at a stocking plan on a 1 acre, fed pond that will have its PH and alkalinity managed and also be aerated with a windmill type aerator. I actually plan to control population numbers, by eating them and letting them eat each other, with only enough cover to concentrate fish to get them to the table quicker. Sorry, I think a beer-battered LMB in the 3 pound range is much tastier, than one in the 10 pound range. This is a first draft and all constructive criticism is requested.

Based on 1 acre Pond:
Quantities adjusted downwards, as pond size decreases.
Before any water, spread Ag. Lime,as recommended, by soil sample tests sent to Texas A&M. As soon as 3 feet of water and some plant growth, add 250 - 500 Grass (also called Ghost or Glass) Shrimp.
2007 March:
Crawfish: qty. ???
2007 September/October:
Coppernose Bluegill Sunfish (3"-5"): qty. 100 each
Redear Sunfish (3"-5"): qty. 50 each
Channel Catfish (6"-8"): qty. 100 each
Fathead Minnows: qty. 10 lbs
Bull Frogs/Tadpoles: qty. 200 each
2008 May/June:
Tiger(F1) or Northern LMB (4"-6"): qty. 20 each
Fathead Minnows: qty. 6 lbs
Mozambique Tilapia: qty. 10 lbs (annually)
2009 September/October:
Channel Catfish (8"-11"): qty. 100 each bi-annually)

Note to self: Below, extremely important or fish will stunt and/or ruin forage base!!!!
Harvest 50 CC, annually. Restock every other year, with 100 CC, at least 8"-11", for better survival.
Harvest up to 25 lbs. LMB, annually, after 1st year. In year 3, begin use of slot limit of 12"- 15" released, but still remove 25 lbs., annuallly.
Harvest up to 100 lbs. CNBG & RE, annually, beginning year 3.
Can 2 people eat 225 pounds of fish, a year, even if less lbs. after cleaning? The Doc does say I should watch my cholesterol.

Oh, and Todd, please comment and take this as a heads up!

No matter what the other denizens will be, I think you are woefully short on bluegill forage. They are, IMO, the only sustainable protien source for predators. Gotta admit, I know nothing about the sustainability of grass shrimp. Crawdads are great but they are like fatheads. They aren't sustainable. I do see 10 pounds annually on tilapia but they are not year around forage. For those reasons, I doubt that you will be able to harvest 100 lbs. of BG/cnbg/res yearly.

25 lbs. of lmb yearly might also be a problem. In one acre ponds, they get hook shy and catching them can get pretty problematical. So can the catfish. I have a couple of one acre ponds and I don't figure I could catch 25 pounds per year without working pretty hard. They just don't seem to cooperate.

Congratulations on working on a plan. Most don't and there are probably a lot of ways to get it done. I hope and expect that you will get a lot more responses.

Dave,
I felt the CNBG and RE numbers were low, too, but I increased them a lot from the 15 BG & 15 RE recommended in the Stocking Guide for New or Renovated Ponds, from the Texas Chapter of the American Fisheries Society.

I do not mind having to eat less than 100 pounds of CNBG/RE, annually. Too much work for too little meat.

The hook shy LMB does concern me, because they could easily over populate. I know a guy who is becoming a good friend that has an old crank telephone.

This all leads me to another question -- If LMB stunt, are they still big enough to eat? Stunted adults will still produce viable offspring, right?

I think I can cut back on my feeding and trot line or jug line the CCs, when necessary. Either that or hope Todd sells me dumb LMB and CCs. I guess seining is another option?

Wow, 15? The smallest number I've seen was 500 per acre with the 80/20 mix of bg/res. The most generous number to use that assures a good forage base, that I've seen, is 1,000 per acre. I kinda had my tongue in my cheek when I said you wouldn't be eating 100 pounds. I really don't think you will have enough to sustain your predator base, much less your appetite.

My bass and CC are hook shy. If I fish more often than every other month, I may or may not catch anything. If I use one of the red and white plastic corks, the catfish see it and stop feeding on the pellets.

Yeah, you can eat stunted LMB. Of course, that depends on just how small they are. But, I've eaten a bunch of 11 inch bass.

The cat can be skinned a lot of ways. If you don't want to work your butt off but just have something to enjoy fishing in and to eat some fish, I like the idea of a HBG and CC pond. Use a feeder, eat a lot of fish, and periodically restock. With that, you probably wouldn't have to fertilize (assuming good fertility), you could put in some fatheads or mosquito fish and just enjoy it without worrying so much. I've done several of those this year for people. They like the idea after I discuss bass or BG heavy, culling, DO crashes, etc. If weeds pop up, get some grass carp. It generally takes about a month to get the GC permit.

I like this mix for another reason. If the owner changes their mind, I can always toss in about 500 medium size BG or CNBG. With the feeder going, predation isn't a huge problem. Then, if desired, add bass to control the BG and vary the fishery.

I doubt that you would have a lot of luck seining CC or LMB. I wouldn't and I sure can't throw a cast net.

I do like the grass shrimp and crawdad idea. Crawdads were the first thing I put in my pond. They got a good start and made it for several years. Even now, I find an occasional crawdad hole. Boy, I wish I knew something about grass shrimp.

bigmac, You are right about stocking only the numbers of CC that you intend to eat, and re-stock annually.
I would not stock more than about 25 or so each year in a small pond, unless you intend to take every one you catch for table fare - they become very hook shy.

Have you considered HSB as a major predator instead of hook shy LMB?

I would rely heavily on Todd's recommendations to address these issues.

When we talk about LMB and CC becoming hook shy, how much fishing pressure does it take to cause that -- fishing every day, once a week, once a month? Maybe, it means caught and released once or twice?

I've read that Goldfishes memory length is about 3 seconds. No offense meant to us Texans, but I've read that our Native (Northern) LMB are dumb and have been known to bite the same lure, within 5 minutes of being caught and released. They went on to say that adding Florida genes helps to create remedial monsters to increase angling enjoyment.

I've also read that only 60% of the CCs will ever bite a hook. That would put a big kink in my harvesting, as a management tool. I guess I could have Todd come out to do a survey, then have a big fish fry, annually?

Instead of HBG, what about a CC, RE, and Fathead pond? I could leave in a few 3 to 4 pound CC or add a few HSB to manage the RE numbers? At least, I'd have some parasite control, too.

Good ideas guys !

I like thinking out what to do and planning in advance. I do want to point out that any plan needs to be adjustable with the data/results. One never knows for sure how a new pond will work wrt fertility and production and carrying capacity. To many variables like feeding ,fertilizing (if used or needed), water quality , weather and recruitment and on and on which play a larger than normal role the first 3 years.

Having said that I like very much the concept in small ponds of using non or low reproducing fish. HBG , HSB , male only BG , female only LMB, RES (limited amounts as they reproduce more than the others) and some type of reproducing minnow (FH ,Gam., or others). These type plans are recommended by state G&F agencies for people who don't want to or can't fool with actively managing the population balance equation. With a small effort they produce good results. Here is a link about HBG options. http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p1893.htm

Y'all are really making me hope the NCRS and dirt workers come in with a 1+ acre pond recommendation.

Bigmac,

I certainly don't claim to be an expert but do have a lot of experience with ponds in your area. I'd like to offer some thoughts as follows:

1) agree wholeheartedly with Dave above on the comments about numbers of BG stocking

2) I question whether stocking of crawdads and grass shrimp is cost effective. If conditions are right in your pond, you will have both naturally...if not, you won't have either. Same on bull frogs.

3) you asked about LMB conditioning and stunting. I'm of the opinion that it is fairly easy to condition every LMB in a small pond to avoid artificial lures/flys. The natives are far less subject to this than the Floridas. However, if you are primarily interested in eating and not sport, a bait fishing approach can catch just about any conditioned LMB. Fish with live small BG and you can catch every single LMB in a small pond, in my experience.

If fish consumption is the objective and not sport fishing, LMB will do just fine for you I believe. The more you have of them, the more to eat and the easier to catch. Stunting shouldn't be a problem in that circumstance.

If you decide on HBG as someone recommended above, although my experience with them is limited, I have learned that Gambusia and HBG go together really well...complement each other.

Good luck and I'd be interested in your comments on the local NRCS services. Thanks.

BigMac,

I think we need to hear more from you regarding your specific fish interests. Who will be fishing the pond? Do you have special interests to consider? Have tastebuds for certain types of fish more than others?

There are so many options, it is easy to get bogged down in numbers, sizes, timing, species selection.

My advise is to stock with good forage base first, according to Davidson's comments. Then you'll have a buffet for whatever predators you'd like to stock later on. Please consider carefully your intention to stock LMB. Maybe you should stock all female laregmouth bass, then other predators that don't have high reproductive potential like HSBs, HBGLs, CC, BC, etc.

When choosing numbers look into the future and work backwards. If you have adequate aeration (more than a diffused air system) and freshwater to maintain pond level then you can sustain up to 1000 lbs of fish per acre. With basic aeration and good water supply you can sustain around 500 lbs of fish per acre. Without aeration and fresh water supply then I would stock for extrapolated 300-500 lbs of fish biomass.

Remember you can always call me to discuss more options.

ML,
Well, the stocking guide recommended 250 BG and RE fingerlings (1" to 3"), but only 15, per acre, if stocking (3" to 5") BG & RE. I've seen numbers as high as 1,500, per acre, for 1" to 3" BG.
I just thought the lower numbers of 3" to 5" BG took into account that the BG & RE would spawn at least once, before the LMB were added, therefore, providing a bunch of 1" to 3" BG for the LMB. It's not a cost issue on my part, so I can add more and make Mr. Overton happier.

When LMB and CC will bit on nothing else, I have always caught them on their natural foods, such as small BG and Golden Shiners. I wonder if "hook shy" is an inaccurate term and maybe it should really be "lure or artificial bait shy"?

Thanks for using the NRCS acronym correctly. It caused me to look it up and correct myself. It wasn't my fat-fingers making the mistake this time.

I agree with you completely that the term should be "lure or artificial shy". I would only add "fly" to that set of words as in "flys or artificial lures shy" , being a fly fishing person.

I have never had any problem whatsoever catching LMB on small live BG.

WRT CC becoming hookshy, that is a wall I have not run into yet. I would say that they are definitely kind of flighty; it's easy to catch one CC while fishing at my pond, but harder to catch two. Something about catching a CC, perhaps the fight to land it, tips off or worries the other CC so they get scarce for a while. This maybe lasts a half or whole day, although if you toss in the day's feed you can usually tempt more CC into hook range.

Like Todd asked - what do you want to have in your pond and how/who do you want to fish it? I think all the species mentioned can be managed in a circa 1 acre pond (not necessarily all together), although some combinations will require more time and effort. Hardly any stocking combos are "set and forget".

Overton Fisheries Wrote: "I think we need to hear more from you regarding your specific fish interests. Who will be fishing the pond? Do you have special interests to consider? Have tastebuds for certain types of fish more than others?"

I like to eat them and catch CC, LMB, BG, and RE. Tilapia could the thrown in there, too. I will only practice catch and Release, when management calls for it, I don't feel like cleaning them, or I don't have time that day to clean them. I like to eat all fish, a lot, but also enjoy catching a 5 pound LMB or a freight-train CC. Sorry, guys, but if the LMB in my pond never get over 3 pounds, I'd still be happy to catch and eat them. The fishermen will be me and friends, along with some children (want BG). I am beginning to see a consensus on using the female LMB, but I'd be restocking often, because of eating them. I was looking at staying with mixed gender Northerns to keep the biomass lower and improve the catchability?

My favorite freshwater fish to eat are Crappie, but I'm not even going to entertain that thought. Besides, Lake Livingston is close by, as are other Crappie lakes.

What does "more than a diffused air system" mean? I may tell the guys I want a 1+ acre pond, even if I have to increase the size of my well to sustain water levels, but that goes against my nature and maybe my future budget.

BTW, Todd, the 50 lbs. of adult FLMB we put in that 17 acre lake have made the Crappie and LMB fishing pretty pitiful. Gone are the days of catching over 25, under 1 lb. LMB, and over 25 Crappie in an hour. Luckily, my Aquapro feeder and added cover around the pier have greatly enhanced the CC and BG fishing. It's a good feeling to be seeing fat fish, instead of fish I could almost see through 8 months ago. Fat BG have caught themselves, when we laid the pole down on the pier, with a piece of bologna dangling on a hook 6" above the water.

I can't wait for the F1 fun to begin this Fall.
Now, if I could just get the lake assoc. to lime and fertilize...

OK. Y'all have me going with CC and HSB, as the predators. I can see how it goes for a few years, before adding any female LMB. If even one male LMB got in there....

I read the weight conversion rate for LMB is 10 pounds of forage to get one pound on a LMB. I read that with CC it is 2 to 1. If true, then I understand why a less than 1 acre body of water can't easily support LMB. Food and fun are my goals; not trophy LMB. I think I need that mind-set, with less than an acre pond.

I'll have to hit one of the lakes in the area to get my LMB and Crappie fix. Where I will be living, lots of trips to the big reservoirs are still much less expensive, than building and maintaining a 2 acre pond.

BigMac, I think you have a pretty good consensus here; slow breeding fish with feeders and aeration. I would PERSONALLY start off with 7 or 8 pounds of Fatheads and figure on periodic replenishing. If ML is right about the staying power of mosquito fish, get some of them. I don't believe in feeding 7 days per week with fish getting only vegetable based protien.

...and increase the numbers of CNBG and RE in the original stocking. I read two more TPWD publications last night. They suggested up to a 1,000 BG fingerlings or 60 adult, and had the 80/20 rule, with the RE. Funny thing is that they then pointed to the same publication I mentioned previously, where they stated 250 fingerlings (1"-3"), per acre, or 15 adult BG (3"-5"), per acre. "Adult" is their word, too. Everything I have read does agree on stocking forage fish the previous Fall, before adding the predators the next Spring.
Sure glad I have you guys to bounce things off of.
I'll be back to pick your brains some more, when I see the pond size and other recommendations from the NRCS and the dirt workers.

Well, here's my plan, as it stands on 08/03/06.

Based on 1 acre Pond, aerated (diffuser) and fed:
Before any water, spread 3 tons of Ag. Lime per acre @ $30.00, per ton, spread.
Soon as 3 feet of water and some plant growth add 250 - 500 Grass (also called Ghost or Glass) Shrimp.
2007 March:
Crawfish: qty. ??? @ $?.?? per pound = $??.??
2007 September/October:
Coppernose Bluegill Sunfish (1"-3"): qty. 1,000 each
Redear Sunfish (3"-5"): qty. 200 each
Channel Catfish (6"-8"): qty. 50 each
Fathead Minnows: qty. 10 lbs
Bull Frogs/Tadpoles: qty. 100 each
2008 March:
F1 or Northern Female LMB (8"-10"): qty. 10 each
Hybrid Striped Bass (7+"): qty. 10 each Female Black Crappie (8+"): qty. 20 each
2008 April/May?:
Mozambique Tilapia: qty. 10 lbs (annually)

Add additional F1 Female LMB, CC, HSB, BC, when Catch Records show half harvested.
Harvest up to 25 lbs. CNBG & RE, annually, beginning year 3, based on Catch Records.

Now, I just need a pond with enough water in it.