Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Willie Makit illustrated by Betty Dont - need help with stocking plan

Having read some more posts about SMB and other I am now questioning my proposed stocking plan for next year and would like some advice/comments.

It is a new 2/3 acre embankment pond with nothing but rainwater and a small amount of runoff to keep water in it. A smaller pond next to it stays nearly full with same condition. I added some pallets, rocks, tree logs and brush and some shallows that will be full of pond plants. Lots of various size rock and misc. cover.

It is 5 feet deep now and will be mostly 8 ft when full with some to 9'. The small pond next to it is 72 degrees now 5 feet from the edge. It is 9' deep in the middle and in the past 4 or 5 degrees cooler in the deepest part. The new pond is 78 degrees but it is only 5' deep.

I was thinking SMB, HSB and YP. I stocked 50 2-3" BG, 50 2-3" RES and 10 lb of fatheads in June to establish the forage base. I transferred about 50 BG from the small pond - some 6-7", some 4-5" some 3-4", thinking they would spawn this year and get a good head start on the predators to come. I guess I was thinking like 50 each of the SMB, YP and HSB, all in the 2-4" size.

I am concerned about the water temp being too warm for the perch and them dying or not growing or no reproduction. Concerned the SMB and BG will both stunt. Would prefer the SMB over LMB mainly for better tasting fish, hard fighters and better survival of the forage fish due to the smaller mouths.

Best outcome would be larger SMB (20" +? eventually) and a self-sustaining population of (up to 11"?) BG and (up to 16"?)YP. Would like to eat the SMB, BG and YP. Eat the HSB (how big might they get under these conditions?)too occassionally and ok to have to restock the HSB and probably FHM annually.

I will not be feeding except by hand rarely. I will allow a lot of plants including cattails to provide cover and hopefully oxygen.

OK - any chance it will work? Or will the smallies top out at 12-18"? Will the BG thrive and reach 10" plus and stay self-sustaining? Any chance of the YP being self sustaing? Will the angry RES scare the other fish into starvation? Should I add G Shiners for additional forage? Will they reproduce or would they require restocking like the FHM? I added pallets and chicken wire - will this with lots of plants and other cover create conditions the FHM could survive the predation and be self-sustaining?

Water is very clear now when we go a week without rain. But it does have color and life. The smaller pond has a lot of color but no algae. Nice green/brown color. The creeping primrose in the small pond is disappearing gradually - I assume the muskrat is eating it - yes? I put 4 8-10" LMB in the small pond when I stocked the BG and FHM maybe the bass eat primrose?

I know - lots of questions. Hopefully you can help me decide what to put in next spring. I suppose if I create a problem it can be corrected with stocking and fishing. I would have no problem with a "controlled" population of the bass - meaning keeping the numbers down through harvesting to acheive the goals.
Thanks in advance for your help

I think there absolutely is a good chance it will work. The size of this pond is right in between the size of my ponds, and I'm stocking similar fish in a similar climate so we have a lot in common. You may have to modify your goals in some ways as the results start to come in, but stay confident.

I don't think the smallies will stunt. Although I am not a smallie expert I think you can put harvest pressure on them if necessary and they should do quite well with ocassional hand feeding and by using smaller YP and bluegill.

I think the bluegill may be a challenge. If I observed good reproduction I'd consider immediately implementing a rule to always harvest all female BG. Make an effort to stay on top of them. Once a bluegill is about five inches he won't be much good for smallie forage. If you pressure them by angling you can keep the males growing fast. If you're still experiencing slow growth you can put pressure on intermediate (6-8) inch males. In a 2/3 acre pond you CAN do this.

I don't know if the YP will be self-sustaining, but I suspect that their summer survival will hinge on being able to find water that is well oxygenated, but not exceeding low eighties for temperature. Can you do a water profile on the other pond looking at water temps deeper in the water column? I feel like having good water clarity will allow phytoplankton to survive and thrive in the deeper cooler water for the perch to find a refuge during July and early August. Cecil, Bill, Theo, others comments?

I love the idea of attempting RES to diversify the forage base. They are very unlikely to overpopulate, will keep your snails under pressure, are exciting to catch, but, alas, will probably scare the living daylights out of other fish.

I don't think anything you're trying is out of the realm of possibility, and I don't believe you are creating any monumental financial risks by trying.

Go, go, go!!

I live in NJ and catch YP from a 5' non-spring fed pond that really heats up in the summer. The population there is self sustaining and is forage for lunker bass. The pond is about 2 acres and produced bass 6-8 lbs and a state record white crappie.

Scott, does the new pond have SMB-friendly spawning susbtrate? If not, are you planning on putting some in?

I agree with Bruce that keeping tabs on BG overpopulation will be an issue, but control should be possible in 2/3 acre (perhaps with trapping to help). If the YP don't make it, I think you WILL need to keep after BG numbers. If the YP thrive, the population dynamics will be interesting.

That's a really good point by Theo. I keep forgetting how much YP like to eat little BG during the winter. That could be a major factor in your BG population dynamic.

Scott I agree with others that you can do what you described . The biggest mgt. matter will be controlling BG #s population. That can be done as provided in the posts above. The last 2 PB issues have discussed the option of not using BG in a northern pond but instead using the combo of FH , GShiners and SMB . If you use that combo and add RES and YP and some craws you may have a great mix. Any thoughts or comments?

Thanks Guys.
Theo - what spawning substrate do the SMB prefer? I will have to add it if not there now. I have some various size rocks, plants, trees (10" log x 20") and some brush, along with pallets.

Eric - no BG is not an option now that they are in there. They and the RES are in and going. I have not added crawdads - could they go in with the predators in the spring or should they go in sooner?

Bruce - I can take some more temp readings to see what the column is like in the small pond. It is bowl shaped and 9' in the center. I will see what I can come up with.

Would adding golden shiners next spring be a plus? Would a larger stocking of SMB, HGB and YP do a better job of controlling the BG? I was thinking like 50 each 2-4". Maybe more or some larger? Will the stripers help keep down the BG numbers?

Any ideas who is eating the primrose in the small pond - do muskrats or LMB like it?

Keeping up with the BG may be a problem. Thanks to PB magazine I feel I can successfully indentify the gender and could select out more of the females. I assume I will know when I have a problem by "catch samples" as I do not have seinening equipment (or desire to do it if I don't have to). I would rather fish and eat hoping I can tell what is going on by the catch method.

I don't see any for sure BG nests - I see some "lighter mud" areas that could be from a spawn. Should I see more? How will I know for sure if the BG are spawning? It is plenty warm in there.

IIRC SMB like gravelly nests in and around larger rocks.

Found a really neat collection of underwater photos of SMB on the nest at michelson photography

My error I did not read carefully enough the BG and RES and FH are there now. With that being the case I would go with SMB ,YP and a few HSB and see what happens and manage from there. You could use GShiners they would be added forage and may help suppress the BG a little by eating eggs and yoy. What we need is some help with the numbers and timing and that depends somewhat on what is available and in what size. Since you put some large BG in I would start looking for small 2-4 in. predators now to see what is available and when. Then decide what plan of action to follow. That is provided you think you will have enough water to fill the pond.

Theo - what the heck is IIRC - If I Recall Correctly? The photos are cool. I will add some gravel and I will also go for a pickup truck load of 2-5" rocks and some softball, basketball stuff. I don't have enough rock substrate to come close to what I saw in those photos. Do you have any idea what depth is best for the spawning substrate? I am guessing just put it on the bottom (8') or maybe in the 5'-6' deep area.

Eric - I was planning next fish delivery ($150) next spring probably April or so. I don't think I have a local source for the small predators. How would adjust (50 smb, 50 yp, 50 hsb all 2-4") to be added next April? Fewer HSB? I thought they would help control the BG. More SMB? Should I add some G Shiners for experimentation? I am hoping the fatheads can propogate and perhaps survive with the structure and cover provided.

Reason I am definitely waiting until spring is I can't be sure of how much water we will get the rest of the year. I got about 4' over the winter, then the evaporation kept up with the rain until last week we got some good downpours and now have 5'. 4'to go and I think it will take winter snow to fill it. I could probably get some 2-4" YP by fishing local lakes - any thoughts on the wisdom of adding those now? If it is a good idea I would have my choice of sizes and quantities - should I put any 6" YP in now? Is there a concern of adding "wild" YP vs. those from the hatchery?

How about some help on this one northern guys?

This is a real balancing act and all without a pond survey (view of current status). It seems to me that the danger of BG overpopulation (with 2 year classes at least of BG and no predators) is bigger than the risk of using some non hatchery YP or SMB in the 4-6in size this fall assuming your water stays or improves. Its a guess on the #s because we don't know the BG density (have or will the adult BG spawn this year).

There are studies that provide in a new pond which is stocked that carrying capacity will occur in about 2 years all other things being equal in the south. I would not want to have the BG to far out in front of the predators. Lets see what others say.

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Eric:

IIRC (and what could I possibly mean by that, George? :p ) Scott has 2 (maybe 2 1/2?) year classes of BG in the pond now - small stockers, large stockers, and quite likely offpsring from the latter.

I bet Scott's pond will fill and stay full this Summer. While many of our friends down South have been suffering from lack of rain, we Ahians have had a pretty wet June and July this year (I keep worrying about my fish suffering from the effects of the high humidity ).

One question that needs answered (to me at least) is how fast is the bottom end of his food chain becoming established? By this I mean the life from plankton up to invertebrates for the FH, BG, and RES to eat. I don't remember enough from my own pond start up to do any predicting on this - I just shoved in FH & Shiners and waited a year (forgive me, I was pre-PB then :rolleyes: ).

But if Scott's pond has greenish water, numerous small insects/invertabrates, and active, growing FH (and maybe BG) fry/small fingerlings, I would judge it to have a good foodchain becoming established already. In that circumstance I feel he could definitely figure on adding a significant number of predators no later than this Fall; I think small numbers could be added this Summer as they could be caught and carefully transferred from other bodies of water (i.e. catch & stock some this Summer himself, professionally stock additional numbers this Fall when it's cooler).

IIRC (thanks to George I now know this acronym can be used in any occasion ) Scott should stock the SMB first his year and follow with YP next year - isn't that a BG/YP/SMB stocking strategy I have seen heartily endorsed here by names I trust?

Does that all make any sense?

It would be real good to have input from YP/SMB experts like Bill Cody or Sunil or Eric in Rochester on this (and anwering SMB spawning questions).

Ohio Scott -- here would be my 2 cents worth. I am admittedly conservative when it comes to controlling panfish species. Others worry more about their prey base, especially the southern pondmeisters, while I worry first about my predator base. I'm not certain I am right - it's just the way I was "raised" in pond management.

So, my concern over your stocking plan is this: I don't beleive smallmouth bass can control all those panfishes (especially bluegill and yellow perch). Smallies do NOT have the predation capabilities of largemouth bass, even in a small pond like yours (2/3 acre).

So, I would encourage you to definitely add the HSB to your combination for additional predators. While HSB are more effective as open-water predators, your pond is small enough that they'll interact with the other fishes simply because of pond size.

As I said, I'll admit that I'm conservative in pond management. If it was me, I'd want to play it safe and add the second predator. I'd also want to get the predators established as soon as possible, given the "head start" of the bluegills.

I am a little gun shy on assuming the pond will fill and stay full this year. We came out of winter great with about 4' of water. The normal spring rains did not happen - the rain we did get would bring it up a couple of inches but then a week or 10 days with no rain and it would go down a couple of inches. Meanwhile the small pond did not go down. I think the reason is because much of the new pond has bare sides and the water "wicks" up 12" of more, plus it is warmer being shallower.
We finally got a good downpour last week and after 3 days of off and on rain it is up from 4' deep to 5' deep with 3 to go. I won't be surprised if I go into November with 5' and have it fill over the winter.
I think the pond is healthy with phyto and zoo plankton. There are a lot of waterbugs, tads, frogs, dragonflies and various plantlife. The color is green but not as deep green as the small pond.
I am a little reluctant to spend $150 on another fish delivery and would rather introduce some predators through catching and transferring. YP would be a lot easier in that regard than Smallies. And I would not feel bad if I put in some YP I caught and it did not work out (dead fish). I am working towards being a true pondmeister - how many fish do I need to kill to reach master status?
If you guys think adding some YP will be sufficient to slow down the BG, I will add some as soon as I can. How many? I imagine I need the perch to be 6-8" plus in size to have an impact. I am guessing they will only be able to affect the BG fry and will be unable to eat the BG that are 2" and larger? I could probably find a place to get some smallies but right now I am not sure where. I assume they could eat larger BG - up to ? size. Maybe up to 4-5"?

Does adding 15 to 20 YP in the 6" + size make sense? If I can locate and add 6 or 12 smallies in the 9"+ size would that be smart?

I have not observed any for sure BG nest or spawning behavior. But I might not know it if I saw it. I have not observed any fry that I know for sure are BG. I did see a small shool of very small black colored fry that I assumed were FHM.
Often I do not see any fish at all. Makes me wonder as I walk all around the edge frequently. The BG do show up to eat japanese beetles that have become available of late - everything I have seen I would estimate at 3-5" with an occassional 6-8". My instincts tell me the BG have spawned. With your helpful input I am now concerned that they (BG) not get too far out front.

Thanks again for the help. I am going to go "in search of" some SMB and YP. Any advice on how many and what size classes would be appreciated. For now I am assuming some is better than none and if they are small I could add many more than if larger. If larger I bet I could still add a dozen or so of each without danger of them running out of forage base. There are the 50 redears in there for them as well as the BG.

Thanks Theo and Dave. With Dave and Theo's input and thoughts and your additional info I would agree that you need some predators soon. I would start looking for some YP , SMB and HSB in the 6in. range maybe larger. Some is better than none. I would see what is available and decide. I would start realizing that YP will prey on BG but can also stunt (they are in-between SMB and BG as both predator and prey). I would go with more SMB and HSB and some YP. I would keep the total below 150 by next spring but that would be a good # to aim for. It may be necessary next summer to add a couple female LMB and or trap/seine some BG but I think it can be managed. Should be fun trying. A small 40 x 4 ft. seine is a lot of fun and is not hard to do and is cheap ($40) and you can build your on trap.

OhioScott - My answers would lean in the direction of Dr. Willis’s comments which are intuitive and experienced. Ultimately my main concern with this stocking combination and size of your pond would be with the predator populations being able to "handle the forage base". A lot of discussion has occurred previously about fish combinations of your chosen species. Sift back through the archives. Hopefully I will be able to get time this winter to better organize topics with good answers for questions such as yours for the Archive Section.

Rather than go into a long discussion and complicate the answers that you have already received, I recommend this. Go with your plan, keep good records in a note book about, 1. everything you put in, 2. everything you take out, and 3. the angling catches and 4. their sizes. Report back here each year as to how the fishes are developing. We can help with advice about adjustments. Ponds similar to yours will typically have good fish growth and fishing for the first several years. Then populations make fairly large adjustments regarding densities and population structure of the overall fishery. During this adjustment period it is especially important to monitor size structure of the fishery to maintain your goals that you stated were - "Best outcome would be larger SMB (20" +? eventually) and a self-sustaining population of (up to 11"?) BG and (up to 16"?)YP." Without regular feeding of a high protein food, I predict your fish after 8-10 years with natural forage will top out at SMB 15"-17", BG 9" and YP at 10"-maybe 12", RES 10-11". Keep us informed how well I estimated.

SMB spawning advice. The rocky gravel beds for nesting should ideally be in water 2.5ft to 4 ft deep. Rocks for nesting can be placed in the bottom of cut-off 55 gal barrels (sides or ends) for containment of rocks in mud bottomed ponds. Truck or tractor tires could be used. Nest sizes for SMB do not need to be much larger than 2 –3 ft diameter if rock supply is limited. Note the size of the substrate in the photo reference provided above by Theo. Some of those rocks are a little large sized to be ideal in my opinion. I suggest a mixture of mostly golf ball to grapefruit sized stones for the nest basin. Hatcheries usually use golf ball sized stones. It would be best, but not necessary, to have one larger rock (cement block or 5 gal bucket sized) or sunken log on one edge or side of each nest. See referenced photos for examples.

Good luck and keep us informed about the progress of your pond by occasionally returning to this specific topic.

Thanks Dave and Bill for looking in on this thread. Great advice as usual.

Bruce Condello says you have to kill a million to be an aquaculturist, but that's a level past pondmeister. I propose a total of 1,000 dead fish to qualify as pondmeister - which means I'll make it this year!

I killed about a 1000 fish while still learning with aquariums before high school. Getting aquarium fish to live beyond fry stage is frustrating. I guess a 1000 dead fish might get you in the beginning stages of a pondmeister.

I'll certainly settle for being a beginner compared to you, Bill.

Kill a thousand - - beginning pondmeister

Kill ten thousand - - advanced pondmeister

Kill a million - - aquaculturist


"Pond Law".

I killed a thousand 3-5 in BG last year in 15 min. by being a dumb advanced pondmeister. In fact they were dead before they were paid for. Think before you act.

10,000 is easy if you seine a few times ,move a few, or don't watch your water quality.

Bill I don't count the ones killed in aquarium experiments. Those are study statistics.

Thank you guys so much. A buddy of mine brought over some YP today and I put some in each pond. Total of 29 YP. I put 19 in the big pond from 6" to 8.5". the other 10 in the small pond - 5@5", 1 at 6",2 @ 7", and 1 Nice one at 8"+.
Based on what everyone is saying the YP I put in will help control the BG (but won't be enough control and could be a problem in their own right) in the big pond but I need to add the SMB and HSB sooner rather than later. However I am concerned that the pond is not full yet and the water is 82.5 F. top to bottom. - about 55" deep. I am inclined to go with a spring delivery when the pond is full. I could go some larger SMB at that time if it matters. I am thinking that if the BG get out of hand I will try ewest's suggestion of adding some female LMB.

The small pond measured 81 F at the surface with steadily falling temps down to 62.2 at the bottom (9'). I threw some of the perch in there thinking they would have a better chance of survival. There are only 4 LMB in that pond at present. There are lots of 1.5"-2" BG - I assume these are YOY?

Another concern is that there is what might be considered a lot of cover for small fish. I assume this could aggravate the BG control situation. In the small pond the BG fry are hanging around the edge. There a lot of cattails and other plants. I saw one of the LMB today from a distance - he looks like has grown! 9-10" first of June - looks all of 12" now. See zero minnows in the small pond. If there is "too much cover" will that make it too easy for the BG and YP fry to survive?

Caught fish today to see what I could measure. To my surprise one of the BG in the new pond measured 9.5". He could not have been more than 6 or 6.5" when I transferred him. Now I know where all the FHM went. The rest I caught (all BG) were from 5 to 7". Other than the ones I transferred the delivered fish were 2-3" so I think they are growing fast. There has been a FHM spawn as I saw lots of them when releasing the perch.

Funny thing I was fishing when my buddy came with the perch. I could see lots of BG as they regularly cruise the dock area since I began feeding Japanese Beetles over the last week. So I could see them in numbers as I was fishing. Since the YP were released I have not seen one. No more bites, nothing. I guess they ran for cover. They had the pond to themselves but now they too must live in fear.

Just a general observation I'd like to make O.S.

Working through situations like yours is made much more enjoyable when someone like you takes such great notes and makes excellent observations. Keep up the great work. It will be very interesting to see the progress.