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 Originally Posted By: overtonfisheries
IMO, the extent to which feed-trained fish might express consequential negative feedback in response to experiencing a hook and "out of body experience", all depends, like Bill Cody says.

For one, it depends on fishing pressure. Somewhere, I'm sure, there is a grey line between too much fishing pressure with pelleted lures and not "too much" fishing pressure. You've crossed that line when you can no longer catch your target species on those pelleted lures. I'm fishing my 2 acre pond every now and then with pelleted lures and I'm not worried about negative conditioning because I have been successful so far. The catfish in this pond are already old and educated and tough to catch so I think it is fair.

Two, I think the competitive nature of feed-trained fish can outweigh the negative conditioning of fishing with pelleted lures, given that fishing pressure is under that grey line and high quality pelleted fish food is offered on a regular basis.

Three, since most of us agree that fish learn, I believe that most of the time they can become aware of your presence at the pond and may avoid pellets while you are fishing or watching. Actually I witness this in my 2 acre pond all the time, the fish feed better when I am watching from a distance than they do when I am standing by the feeder, fishing or not. So this in itself introduces a challenge for the fisherman, and supports Eric's policy of not fishing near the feeders.



Thank you Todd. Great minds think a like. ;\) (I hope that wasn't an insult to you) Those are exactly my feelings but I guess I don't know nutin as my post got ignored.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 02/22/09 04:37 PM.

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 Originally Posted By: AaronM
 Originally Posted By: george1
Aaron, obviously you know very little about me or you wouldn't question my experience or knowledge about fishing, flies, lures, tackle or technique.


George, ouch. I'm not questioning your experience, knowledge or any of that... I hope you don't think I am.

I know you've been catching fish forever, and damn I just hope I can fish as well and as long as you. So don't get this wrong, and I hope that discussions on a forum aren't taken the wrong way. We've met at the last 2 conferences and you're no doubt well respected and well educated on all things fish.

The only thing that I restated was the behavior that you described about your fish - that your fish liked something other than the pellets you feed them. I'd say that's interesting.

The rest of my thoughts on this are as good as they'll get above.

Again, I'll apologize if my words were taken personal, that wasn't the intent.
Aaron, no offense taken.
Bill Cody and Ewest know that my goals are un-conventional and are very patient with my inpatience to grow big fish as fast as posssible, and my pushng the envelope is a riak that I accept.
I achieve interesting results sometime and suffer bad consquence as well.
My timeline for results may be quite diffferent from conventional goals.

Let's have fun with this stuff and leave questionable assumptions such as "the behavior that you described about your fish" for anothr thread...



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\:\)

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First rule - its your pond so do what you want.

Second rule - every pond is different and so are the owner's goals and level of understanding , methods and ability to achieve the goals.

Here is an example. George feeds his entire pond to grow big CNBG to catch. It matters little if he has 5000 or 4000 large CNBG to fish for nor does it matter if he has tons of small 3-5 inch BG for forage. He is not to concerned if his CNBG produce the max # of offspring as forage for other fish. Its about a fair # getting really big and fat. If 20% of them get hook shy from pellet flies , new goop baits , crickets or worms it is no big deal. I feed a small part of the ponds (truly supplemental feeding) to improve the condition of a small % of the CNBG . I do this to increase the total poundage of BG for forage ,to improve fecundity of the BG (more babies) and to have a few to catch away from the feeders. Different goals , different methods , different results but still 2 happy pond owners. For my goals any reduction in BG feeding at the feeders would be unacceptable - so no fishing there except to create new fishermen who might otherwise give up. Also there is plenty of room for us to get away from the feeders and fish while George can't due to size.

The science is more and more compelling that poor catchability is a problem and that it makes a difference to the current fish and that they pass the trait to their offspring.

Last edited by ewest; 02/23/09 09:02 AM.















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Cecil I didn't ignore your post...I feel you have a valid point and your post supports my opinion as well.

I was energized by the topic and went pellet-fly fishing this evening and caught a ~10lb grass carp on the first cast with a fly rod. That doesn't happen every day now does it? Also caught many other species.


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 Originally Posted By: overtonfisheries
Cecil I didn't ignore your post...I feel you have a valid point and your post supports my opinion as well.

I was energized by the topic and went pellet-fly fishing this evening and caught a ~10lb grass carp on the first cast with a fly rod. That doesn't happen every day now does it? Also caught many other species.


Todd,

I didn't say you ignored my post. I was not referring to you at all when I said that. My point was you and George said the same thing I did so we think a like on this. I was actually flattered we all thought alike on this. Especially two people that put my meager experience to shame.

Wow a 10 lb. grass carp on a flyrod? Must have felt like fighting a freight train! Are they as powerful as they say they are?

We don't even have open water here. 7 degrees tomorrow night. \:\(


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Just to be clear, my comments about being ignored sounded like more than they were. Not that big of a deal at all. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. It's so easy to misinterpret comments when you can't see the body language.

I'm fine here and I hope I didn't say anything to ruffle any feathers. I'm good at doing that by not even trying.


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"the fact that the 'new lure' worked better than your pellet fly is proof that your fish aren't eating your pellets as aggressively as they once were."

I actually think there are two reasons the 'new lure' (pellet) worked better than the pellet fly.

1. George's wife was using the new pellets....hehe
2. The new pellet is quite frankly better than the pellet fly. The new pellet gives off more pellet scent and looks more natural than the pellet fly. It has nothing to do with conditioning. The fish were not feeding aggressively due to the weather conditions present.


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 Originally Posted By: AaronM
Imagine if I could out fish the pellet fly with just a grub on a jig head??? That's not a good sign for stuffing your fish with pellets for supplemental feeding.


On most typical fishing days anywhere, I can catch 10 times more fish by using a small 1.5" smoke colored curly tail grub on 1/16 oz jig than I could catch using pellets, worms, minnows or any bait. Sometimes natural bait just takes too long to get into the zone!


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I dont agree with some of the post. Fish cant go to the damn grocery store and buy 100 different things to eat like we can so if your telling me fish will stop eating minnows because he was caught then i call horse___t! He may not eat one 1 minute after he was caught but bet your ss he will later on. What else are the bass supposed to eat? Go to mcdonalds for a happy meal? I have bluegill in my pond and golden shiners, and i have fished with both in my pond and caught LMB using them. So i guess the LMB are gonna die because i fished with the only thing they have to eat in the pond because they were already caught once with them? cmon guys im not an expert but dang

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Just remember.

A fish capture doesn't happen in a vacuum. You must balance that negative reinforcement with the hundreds, or maybe thousands of positive reinforcements that occur with each feeding.

If my Big Mac has a wood splinter in it, and I poke my tongue, I'm not going to eat less long term. I may remember the negative reinforcement for a while, and I may even break up the next burger and cautiously examine it before I eat it, but the negative reinforcement will soon become just a faint memory for me.

And supposedly I'm smarter than a fish.

My personal opinion is that negative reinforcement schedules for a fish that's captured are somewhat overblown. Especially beyond the short term.

But then again....I could be wrong. ;\) It seems like I lose this argument about once a year on this forum.



Last edited by Bruce Condello; 02/23/09 08:34 PM. Reason: needed a mea culpa

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It is always to hear about an improved product.

Negative reinforcement is not about the fish no longer eating the same food itmes. What often happens in "wiser" or more eexperienced fish is they become a little more cautious with each negative event when they eat that or similar items. Each time they take a little longer to examine the item before eating it. Watching to see if anything obvious or unnatural is present. Repetitive behavior with negative reinforcement and the fish becomes more and more cautious before rushing in to feed. Some like people slowly or never learn and with fish (at least in public waters) are eventually soon removed from the system.

Often more aggressive and younger fish, rush in to feed while the more experiened fish often lingers before feeding. This is one reason why one can usually catch smaller fish easier than larger fish (trophies) despite in many waters trophies are fairly common (DNR netting studies). If the wiser fish sees any negative reinforcement (buddy is hooked & emits fright pheromones) this also can create even more caution while feeding. In-Fisherman mag in several articles mentions that hook shy fish often approach lures, examine, an then turn and leave. Caution prevailed for that fish. Older wiser fish are often harder to catch while younger fish can usually be realily caught.

I have numerous pellet feeding fish that can keenly recognize real pellets from roundish seeds or other similar looking stuff on the surface. Younger ones rapidly rush in for any pellet looking item. Some will try the fakes but wiser fish ignore it. I am confident that wiser fish can easily recognize a pellet on even a smallish hook. Hook and line make a pellet look enough different and the wiser fish first wait and examine before eating. Did you ever watch an old, large wise bluegill very slowly approach and examine a food item before finally taking it? Why do you think it was lingerling and approaching so hesitantly? It wasn't becasue it was inexperienced. Those inexperienced ones were removed long before.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/23/09 10:14 PM.

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in my experience, and in terms of most lepomis species (redbreasts and BG back east, BG and GSF out west), maybe as i get older these species have evolved and are getting smarter, but i seem to recall being able to catch the same fish time and time again on the same offerings....or is it maybe i just happen to have fished for stupid stupid fish.


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Some fish like people and dogs just tend to be dumber or smarter. Are some breeds of dogs are generally smarter than others - companion or leader dogs? Ask a dog trainer about this trait. My cousin has a lab that is really really dumb, dumber than most I've seen.

Also involved is individuality, some more than others. This is genetic variation. It occurs in every species.

Also involved is I think some fish genetically tend to be more aggressive GSF vs yellow perch vs FHM. I don't consider a non-breeding RES aggressive at all - generally pretty docile compared to a GSF. If you put a similar sized BG and GSF together in a 20 gal aquarium without structure, 90%-98% of the time the GSF will nip, bump and chase the BG until the BG becomes fungused and dies or is very ill, usually in several days - usu less than 10 days. That was college research project for me as a senior "Agnostic Behavior of Two Species of Lepomis".

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/23/09 10:46 PM.

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In the UK a pond owning fishing club has 70 carp and 34 members. Each member has caught each fish at least once. I may be off on the numbers, but not the each catching part. Carp are probably an older species than bass so may be less intelligent.

I will agree with Aarron and Bill, partly, that anything that causes fish to eat less will contribute to a slower rate of reaching maximum size. Measuring it will be difficult.

In my pond the fish themselves create negative reinforcement. The barramundi nip fins and tails from the tilapia while the tilapia eat the pellets. The barrimundi also eat each other, the pacu eat first and the biggest pacu eat first of all. The pacu, like the barimundi were all stocked from the same spawn and some are nearly twice the size of others.

As Bruce said, you can put them off their feed for a short time, but mine come back with a vengence in the next day or so.


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Rad - I tend to agree, but does every fish of the same species eat with the same aggressiveness?


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Bill,
Possibily not, but I sure don't know, would be like, do fish have personalities?

Neither the barrimundi nor pacu breed in the pond, so there is only one generation of each. They are not passing anything along. So their genetics are set, when little, they were all aggressive. To this day you can see the pacu shoulder each other out of the way. The pacu are very eager eaters and dispurse the pellets almost immediately. That gives everyone a fair shot at some food.

Long winded way of saying I would tend to believe the bigger fish come by it naturally rather than being less aggressive.


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Draw your own conclusions.

We conducted a long-term selection experiment to assess the

heritability of vulnerability to angling in largemouth bass Micropterus salmoides.




















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Thanks ewest.


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Thanks ewest, can't wait to see your article. Do you equate catch rate to aggressiveness? Do you think that applies to eating normal forage as well?

Again, I don't think people would notice a 10% decrease, but it's the math problem that 10% in 3 generations is .9*.9*.9 and that becomes something important... and with hundreds of fish it would be impossible to actually tell a difference by fishing IMO.

 Originally Posted By: JHFV
I dont agree with some of the post. Fish cant go to the damn grocery store and buy 100 different things to eat like we can so if your telling me fish will stop eating minnows because he was caught then i call horse___t!


My point wasn't that they'd 'stop eating minnows' it was that they'd be less aggressive and change their predation habits. Instead of a fish eating 10 minnows in a day they would change their behavior and maybe only eat 8. Doesn't mean one can't catch fish. Doesn't mean they'll die. Doesn't mean you can start catching them on horse___t either. My belief is that they wont have optimal growth, and that they will be more 'whatever' shy (they don't see hooks, they see the bait - so I think it's 'lure shy' not hook shy).

Maybe Cody is stating this better than I am, and maybe I'm full of it as you say.

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Aaron, you do have a valid point, the degree of gain would be my only question. Would it be getting your fish to their genetically allowed size faster or do you think that they will stretch their size window?

That is where I am confused. I don't know if you read the thread about the tank raised tilapia, but the amount of protein they were given was very high and they grew extermely fast. But, will they exceed their genetic disposition just because of food, probably not.

Look at Bruce's bluegill, he is working all of the angles to create fish that exceed normal genteric limits, is it working?

One other maybe factor, my pacu store fat, they can store lots of fat, so by feeding them as much as they could/would eat might allow me to grow a world record fish. But, I could probably do it on 4lb test line.


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Rad, good question. I think the issue is their maximum individual potential. Which could be group potential as Cody and Ewest have eluded to, but my focus above was on individual. I'm not sure they can stretch their size window, just maximize it. The biggest challenge is that we can't see maximum potential not realized, so we underestimate the effect. (this isn't just a biology issue of course)

We people who like fish are a little odd. We're obsessed with 'big fish.' I'd submit that big fish are obese - not just genetically freaky. The proof is in the LMB from CA over the past 20 years. It wasn't the FL genes that have been in FL and TX for a long time, it was that those fish ate better nutrition for longer periods of time and got extra fat. (there is lots of evidence to this) So pick any 20+lb that was caught in California, and move them to Texas when they were 1lb or a little happy fry. They'd never have reached their 20lbs potential because of a host of limiting environmental factors, but mainly food.

Bruce's BG are focused on genetics. Is it working? Yes of course (see bigbluegill.com) :). But to grow the elusive 3+lb it will take more than genetics as he's helped teach us all. Bruce also obsesses over water quality, and food quality. He even obsesses about environmental quality and over-winters some fish since he has a built in problem in that his growing season is not ideal. To get to the big 'special' fish, the math says everything needs to go as close to perfect for many many years. It's systemic, and everything matters.

He and I disagree a little on this point as he stated above it might be over-rated. That's okay. Maybe in a few years we'll add in over long-term life quality or something else to list of variables.

I'd LOVE to see you break the record on 4lb line by the way!

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Eric, I look forward to seeing that in the mag. You posted something like that after the first PB get together at D/FW in the archives but I'm not finding it. I'll happily wait for the mag results.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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Thanks Dave. I do not want to under cut the Mag.

Yes there was a study done by Gary Garrett of TPWD that is related to the new one and its findings are included in the new study along with a bunch of additional studies on everything from BG , trout , CC all the way to birds. I will find the old thread for you here.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=58265&fpart=1 Fla LMB catchability
















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Eric, thanks for linking that. The recap of Dr Garrett is just fantastic.

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