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AaronM #150357 02/21/09 05:22 PM
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I warned you that this thread was going to be fun ...
Come on guys - speak out.

This isn’t an academic exercise ….
“It all depends” on your goals.
To me - it’s not the fish in the fight - it’s the fight in the fish ...

MATCH THE HATCH - PELLET FLIES RULE ...
ENJOY .... \:\)



N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds
Original george #173 (22 June 2002)




george1 #150358 02/21/09 05:38 PM
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On my ponds, my goal is to get fish to a certain size and then let people have the most fun they have ever had fishing for them. My goal is to grow big fish, but I am not going to sacrifice the fishing pleasure of hundreds to grow a world record.

We use pellets for bait!


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I also agree with George.

I will also say I typically don't fish my ponds anymore until harvest time, not because they will learn to avoid my lures, but I don't want to take a chance on losing any of them. I guarantee you you will lose some fish with catch and release no matter how careful you are. Maybe a small number but some will fight to exhaustion and could die up to three days later.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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 Originally Posted By: n8ly
On my ponds, my goal is to get fish to a certain size and then let people have the most fun they have ever had fishing for them. My goal is to grow big fish, but I am not going to sacrifice the fishing pleasure of hundreds to grow a world record.

We use pellets for bait!


n8, so this is a completely different point than I made above (which I'd love your comments on), but isn't more than half of fishing fun actually the 'challenge' of getting the fish to bite? managed ponds are like shooting fish in a barrel with ANY lure for the most part. We're fishing in outdoor aquariums. When I was 6 it was fun fishing at the fish hatchery...

You should call what you're doing 'catching'.. it's not really 'fishing'.. \:\)

Might was well give them an electrofishing boat..

AaronM #150361 02/21/09 06:00 PM
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If you just want to monitor fish growth, or reduce the population of certain fish, just use fish traps.
I do that to reduce the population of PS's, and check on trout growth.
Occasionally I fish and keep to eat.
To each his own. \:\)

Last edited by adirondack pond; 02/21/09 06:08 PM.


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Aaron,
I read every single word of your above thoughts and pretty much think you nailed every thing right on the head! Your ability to put thoughts into words and then even explain details for clarification was awesome! If my goal was to grow the biggest fish possible, than I would try not to catch that fish at all with any bait. We also try not to even touch the fish that we release.

Most of the people I take fishing are first timers, old timers, or beginners. I rarely waste my time taking someone fishing who already knows how to. To the people I take fishing, one of the funnest things they will ever do is to reel in a big fish. They dont know its like shooting fish in a barrel, because I dont let them know that!

That being said, I manipulate every fishing trip I ever take out without the client ever knowing! I can easily determine the appropriate amount of fishing action for the person I am taking fishing and pretty much stage the whole thing. Baits, Target Species, and Boat Positioning I change up constantly to keep the client catching just enough fish to stay entertained.

I observe fish and how they react to baits daily! On a whole, to catch the same fish over and over, I have to change up presentations and tactics constantly. Also we selectively harvest fish on every fishing trip. Clients take home enough fish to eat a meal or two or have a fish fry, but I always discourage the fish going into the freezer!

George, I think your fish could ultimately grow bigger if you didnt fish for them period. I think though that your having an awful lot of fun managing your pond for just stinkin huge CNBG with lots of fun pictures and memories as opposed to managing it for scary huge CNBG with no pics, memories, etc along the way.

Kind of like you can spend your whole life working and accumulating and then its over. For me, I can sacrifice a little potential in order to enjoy the whole process.

But then that leads me back to your situation Aaron. I bet you ARE enjoying the whole process to the absolute fullest!


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N8, thanks for the comments, I wish I could fish 5% of the time you do - it's cool that you're having so much fun!

n8ly #150373 02/21/09 08:45 PM
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I have fed with pellets since day one and when the fish reached about 1 1/2 pounds I started adding veggies. Catching fish during that time was very much like shooting fish in a barrel, anything that went in was taken, from asparagus to zucchini.
But, priorities changed and I went back to pellets only and not fishing, but maybe 15 minutes every two or three months. The longer between trips the more difficult they became to catch. The old veggie, hotdog, shrimp, bread baits became worthless.
I worked on a pellet based bait and began catching fish again.
Now, I can't say that the number of fish who show up at feeding time is reduced in any way, but can say that the pattern is the same. The biggest fish eat first, working down until the babies at ponds edge are cleaning up the few scattered pellets that remain.
As for the growing of big fish by attempting to ensure that all of the fish get as much food as they can hold, I would say that the task would be very difficult. Fish don't grow at the same rate and the biggest eat first and the smallest eat last. My example is barrimundi, they don't eat pellets, at least not directly. In the last month we caught, first a 25 inch, then a 27 inch and last a 14 inch, all from the same spawn, all stocked at the same time and all with the same opportunity to feed.


1/4 & 3/4 acre ponds. A thousand miles from no where and there is no place I want to be...
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I have to be honest, I have ZERO experience in fishing ponds that have pellet fed fish in them. Other than the stocker trout I fish for in the stream behind our hunting cabin I can't say I have ever caught a pellet fed BG, LMB or any other fish.

I will say I think the points from both sides of the perspective are excellent and although I currently don't own my personal pond yet, the few ponds I have dabbled with over the years were all natural food source ponds. I actually get a lot of enjoyment building a natural food chain. I honestly don't know what route I will take when it comes time to decide to feed or not to feed? And then, if I do decide to feed, to fish with pellets or not fish with pellets?

The great thing about owning your personal pond is, IT'S YOURS! You can manage it and fish it the way YOU want. To each their own... As the old saying goes, whatever floats your boat, just keep it on your side of the lake! HAHA

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For most of 2007 and all of 2008, I fished for BG in the extended (apx 1o0 yards of shoreline) feeding area. Usually about an hour and a half a week. But all that fishing was with worms, mealworms, and prepared baits imitating the same.

I have not had much experience, and less success, catching anything from a pellet imitation at random times. I do occasionally suspend a pellet imitation (mostly a pellet inside a ring of brown tubeskirt material) under a bobber in the middle of the feeding area after I have thrown the feed in. I have found this a good way to harvest a catfish; CC are just about the only thing that will take a pellet on a hook in the midst of feeding time.

To be honest I have not been too concerned about my BG becoming hookshy. The smaller ones, I remove. If the bigger ones become hookshy, it means I won't stress them too much from repeated C&R.


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Most of you here have vastly more fishing experience than I do. Therefore I can only offer my experience on my pond and one observation regarding catching the same fish over and over

 Originally Posted By: Aaron, the crazy guy from Arizona, that doesn't know any better so he raises SMB in the heat of the desert, what next Muskie?
I'm not sure we came to any conclusion, but I’ll argue in my ‘don’t catch your fish’ argument that most likely any world class fish has been caught very few times in its life


I think that you are correct and I offer one piece of anecdotal evidence. Remember the huge LMB named Dottie that was foul hooked here in San Diego County (and such a ruckus was raised over)? Dottie had unusual markings and so apparently was somewhat easy to differentiate from other LMB. There are three recorded catches of Dottie. In 2001 she was caught and weighed 20 pounds 10 ounces. In 2003 she was caught and weighed 21 pounds 11.5 ounces. And the famous foul hooking occurred in 2006 when she weighed 25 pounds 1 ounce. Why JHAP did you mention any of this? Have you gone completely off your rocker? Dottie spent her life in Dixon Lake. This is a 72 acre public lake and although that is a decent sized lake by our Pond Boss standards (otherwise we would be named Lake Boss, or Ocean Boss or Really, Really, Big Water Impoundment Boss) it certainly is not large by lake standards. It is a public lake and gets fished fairly heavily. So what struck me about reading about Dottie is that you have this 72 acre lake that gets fairly heavy fishing pressure and yet good old Dottie is on record as being caught only three times from 2001 through 2006. Based upon her size I think it's relatively safe to assume that anytime she was caught it probably was recorded. Obviously, this does not account for the times that she snapped lines which given a fish that large probably occurred a few times. So basically what I'm saying is that I think Aaron is probably right here.

What I wonder, and surely one of you Uber-Fishermen might already know, is with all of the fancy bass tournaments have any records been kept about the same fish being caught over and over? Are any of the large fish at these tournaments ever tagged before releasing? Ewest are there any studies regarding this? (this being data related to the frequency of catching and re-catching of trophy sized fish).

And for my own pond experience: My fish, because they take after their pond owner, are somewhat intelligent and somewhat demented. One day they will strike the same lure over and over as though obsessed with one particular subject (sound familiar?) and then the next day, under very similar fishing conditions, they would not strike that lure even if you bounced it off their head, almost like they have a short attention span (also, sound familiar?). So they do eventually overcome their obsession and learn (keep any comments to yourselves Yolk and Rainman, I'm trying to make a point here). We bought our pond in 2005 and in spring of 2006 I was throwing a lizard lure. The LMB hit it like crazy for a couple of days. Now they won't touch the same lure, I haven't caught a fish on that lure in several years, sure I've tried changing my retrieve and spraying every attractant on it except for Sex Panther Cologne and still no luck. So they definitely learn. JWHAP had a similar experience with a pink bug lure.

I don't feed my the fish at all, they only eat 100% natural and organic food that mother nature provides (well except for half of a baloney sandwich that I dropped in the pond once) so the only experience I have with catching fish that have been fed has been at DIEDs and and Lusk Lodge 2, both of which are very good fisheries I might add. Oh and BTW not feeding my fish has nothing to do with wanting my fish raised on natural and organic food, it's just that I don't want all the hassle and expense of feeding and at times (like now) I am symbolically chained to my desk via the annual government required paper shuffle (please no political comments) and therefore would not be able to maintain a feeder.

Oh and and if this post proves to be completely irrelevant to the subject matter don't blame me for wasting your time, after all you knew who wrote it when you read it and if you read many of my posts then you should know my track record and therefore it's probably YOUR fault that your time was wasted. Which proves that YOU get caught (reading my posts) over and over on the lure (the ridiculous text contained within most of of my posts) and therefore YOU are probably not any smarter than the fish in your pond.

Wow, that took a lot of energy to write. I think I'll go nap now.


JHAP
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I read that post twice,and I still dont know what your point is,except that you like Sex Panther Colonge.On the other hand,I figure your a little off this morning anyway,cause I called you a lawyer in another thread and you didnt pounce on me for it.Maybe you need more coffee(or maybe your coffee nees more additive)


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JHAP, thanks for giving me something to read, I've got a bad cold (wifes fault), and its snowing like crazy, so I have lots of time to waste. \:D
Just think, If the Govnmt. goes to a flat tax you'll have tons of time to fish your pond, unfortunately you won't have any money to get there. Just a happy thought. ;\)



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I would respond to both of you but then I could be accused of hijacking this thread so I shall refrain. I feel that I showed a great deal of restraint in my post, made some valid points, posed an on-point inquiry, and kept to the subject matter as much as is possible given my current mental condition. I would ask others to please follow suit. Thank you for your cooperation.





Last edited by jeffhasapond; 02/22/09 11:28 AM. Reason: Edited to improve the maturity level of this thread and to provide documented proof that I am not to blame if this thread gets hijacked.

JHAP
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Its not gonna work.We're gonna blame you anyway


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IMO, the extent to which feed-trained fish might express consequential negative feedback in response to experiencing a hook and "out of body experience", all depends, like Bill Cody says.

For one, it depends on fishing pressure. Somewhere, I'm sure, there is a grey line between too much fishing pressure with pelleted lures and not "too much" fishing pressure. You've crossed that line when you can no longer catch your target species on those pelleted lures. I'm fishing my 2 acre pond every now and then with pelleted lures and I'm not worried about negative conditioning because I have been successful so far. The catfish in this pond are already old and educated and tough to catch so I think it is fair.

Two, I think the competitive nature of feed-trained fish can outweigh the negative conditioning of fishing with pelleted lures, given that fishing pressure is under that grey line and high quality pelleted fish food is offered on a regular basis.

Three, since most of us agree that fish learn, I believe that most of the time they can become aware of your presence at the pond and may avoid pellets while you are fishing or watching. Actually I witness this in my 2 acre pond all the time, the fish feed better when I am watching from a distance than they do when I am standing by the feeder, fishing or not. So this in itself introduces a challenge for the fisherman, and supports Eric's policy of not fishing near the feeders.



Last edited by overtonfisheries; 02/22/09 11:44 AM.

It's ALL about the fish!
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Dadgummit Aaron, this post was supposed to be fun and you done got serious on us, if you understand East Texas redneck vernacular ……

Let me be perfectly clear – I understand a challenge and have great respect for what you have accomplished and you should be proud, and what you have achieved in creating an artificial environment is even more awesome than little bitsy pellet flies.

 Originally Posted By: AaronM

……………………………………………………………………………………
First, it's your pond so do whatever the you want. If you want easy fishing, use a pellet. It’s your pond and your fish! \:\)
………………………………………………………………………………………..
(note: genetics are important, and I think I started with great fish from Todd Overton and chose his fish because of the great things people say about them)
………………………………………………………………………………………………
I’d also argue that George has proven this numerous times in his quest to find a pellet that will produce the best (yes, lots of old posts talk about that.) The goal is to find the bait that the fish eats most aggressively/readily. That bait is more often than not a bait that resembles as closely as possible what it normally eats. (same with live bait fishing as recently discussed in another post)
……………………………………………………………………………………………
“Don’t catch your fish”
……………………………………………………………………………………………..
Don’t fish with pellets.
………………………………………………………………………………………………
So in the end, why would I want any individual fish, or all my fish, getting wary of the magical pellet? It’s the easiest food for them to eat, and I want them eating as many of the darn things as they can. Ever seen a fish get tired chasing a pellet? Pellets are like me eating a perfectly nutrition meal sitting on the couch.

Now I’d argue that we’re cheating nature with almost everything we pondmeisters do to manage our ponds, but that’s the fun of it. But isn’t fish food the most wonderful cheating yet? Food is almost always the limiting factor in growth, and we get to stuff their mouths with Aquamax everyday.
……………………………………………………………………………………….
Why would I want them ever giving a pellet a second look, for even a second?


The MOST important thing I have learned about the use of pellet flies is from Greg Grimes (cork pellet), Cecil Baird (fish food pellet), Bruce Condello (pom-pom pellet) is that this is the VERY BEST technique to sample/survey a feed trained fish population, short of seining or shocking.

The second best reason to use fish food pellet flies is to teach someone how to fish, without the disappointment of NOT catching a fish, as Nate explained so well.
I can teach some one to fly cast in 15 minutes if they are catching fish, whereas teaching casting on a lawn there is no association with fishing or motivating to learn.

I love to stroll the banks of our pond at first light, fly rod in hand, casting a bug or fly that I tied myself, not really caring whether I catch a fish or not.

But on the other hand, at least one a month, - sometimes more often, I want to observe the growth and condition of my feed trained fish, and I can catch as many fish to satisfy this requirement easily with a pellet fly.
Using this technique I can select the most desirable genetic traits that I want to develop in my pond, and remove any inferior traits that I choose.

This new product will enable a pondmeister that does not want to develop the skills to “tie” a pellet fly to use this technique, and if he/she wishes, to catch feed trained fish every time he goes to their pond.




Last edited by george1; 02/22/09 01:01 PM.


N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds
Original george #173 (22 June 2002)




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George,its my mission in life to catch your flyfishing class this year \:\)


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Hey George who got all serious? \:\) This is a fun post - and you got me to actually opine. When I found this forum I learned the most from posts with debate that had logic & examples on all sides. Ponds and fish are living things, and you're right - it does depend. I'm happy you started this by throwing down the challenge to disagreeing with Bill, it's those post that are instructive.

I agree with what you're saying and fully understand the perspective.

Your second reason - "teach someone how to fish, without the disappointment of NOT catching a fish" - I fully understand. I get that. My point was why I don't use pellets and why a pondmeister would choose not to.

Re: the sampling, I just think the negative consequences are bigger than anyone can see. Fish populations in feed ponds are so dense it's almost impossible to get to the point that Todd talked about where "you can't catch them on pellets anymore." If you're that far every fish won't ever eat a pellet and that would be wacky pond - and I think that negative effects happen way before that - like when one fish of good potential fish gets more cautious and eats pellets less aggressively.

If you want to test this put 5 nice fish in a small pond. Feed train them for a year, 3 months, whatever. Watch them get fat with great relative weights. Then start fishing with a pellet. Catch the fish every week. I'd bet you a beer that your pellet won't work so well in a couple weeks - and I'd bet you'd see a clear difference in the feeding habits on pellets for a long period of time.

I also agree that it's a good way to sample - just short of seining or electo. My interpretation of sampling to see growth sizes and traits was that was done occasionally or annually.

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George, btw. Maybe this got lost in my post - but I think the fact that the 'new lure' worked better than your pellet fly is proof that your fish aren't eating your pellets as aggressively as they once were. I know how proud you are of your fish, and don't want you putting up pictures of skinny fish. \:\)

Imagine if I could out fish the pellet fly with just a grub on a jig head??? That's not a good sign for stuffing your fish with pellets for supplemental feeding.


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 Originally Posted By: AaronM
George, btw. Maybe this got lost in my post - but I think the fact that the 'new lure' worked better than your pellet fly is proof that your fish aren't eating your pellets as aggressively as they once were. I know how proud you are of your fish, and don't want you putting up pictures of skinny fish. \:\)

Imagine if I could out fish the pellet fly with just a grub on a jig head??? That's not a good sign for stuffing your fish with pellets for supplemental feeding.

Aaron, obviously you know very little about me or you wouldn't question my experience or knowledge about fishing, flies, lures, tackle or technique.

Let's not go there ....



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George has probably done more fishing than all of us put together. He's out there catching fish or tying flies on days when we are hitting computer keys. He's been fishing with pelleted flies for years and is still catching good fish.

I think Aaron makes a valid point about fish becoming pellet-shy when pellets are loaded with a hook. If you put 5 good bluegill in a small pond and feed-train them as Aaron described and fish with a live red wiggler on a consistent basis catch-and-release, then you're gonna see a decrease in catch rates over time. In fact, if you do enough of this then you'll get to the point where the fish probably don't bite the wigglers at all. You can change your strategy at this point but catch rates may still be down because fishermen aren't invisible and the fish may associate your silhouette with pain. At this point I assume they'll still be feeding on pellets and they may be obese and impossible to catch on anything BUT a pellet fly. So then you've got some very fat fish that you may not catch unless you emulate a pellet. Then what? Don't know. Stock 5 more fish? \:D

As for me, this theoretical stuff gets me all bogged down and decreases my catch rates, mainly cause I can't fish and type at the same time.


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 Originally Posted By: overtonfisheries
Then what? Don't know. Stock 5 more fish? \:D

As for me, this theoretical stuff gets me all bogged down and decreases my catch rates, mainly cause I can't fish and type at the same time.


Perfect solution is to stock more fish, and we know where I got mine. \:\) We'll get you a new blackberry Todd! LOL

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Right On!!!


It's ALL about the fish!
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 Originally Posted By: george1
Aaron, obviously you know very little about me or you wouldn't question my experience or knowledge about fishing, flies, lures, tackle or technique.


George, ouch. I'm not questioning your experience, knowledge or any of that... I hope you don't think I am.

I know you've been catching fish forever, and damn I just hope I can fish as well and as long as you. So don't get this wrong, and I hope that discussions on a forum aren't taken the wrong way. We've met at the last 2 conferences and you're no doubt well respected and well educated on all things fish.

The only thing that I restated was the behavior that you described about your fish - that your fish liked something other than the pellets you feed them. I'd say that's interesting.

The rest of my thoughts on this are as good as they'll get above.

Again, I'll apologize if my words were taken personal, that wasn't the intent.

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by FishinRod - 03/28/24 04:23 PM
Working on a .5acre disaster, I mean pond.
by PRCS - 03/28/24 04:13 PM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by LANGSTER - 03/28/24 03:49 PM
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by ewest - 03/28/24 03:37 PM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by esshup - 03/28/24 10:39 AM
Brooder Shiners and Fry, What to do??
by Freg - 03/28/24 09:42 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by Justin W - 03/28/24 08:19 AM
Reducing fish biomass
by FishinRod - 03/28/24 08:18 AM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

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