Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site Questions about pond construction

Greetings all!

I've been lurking and reading. This is a fantastic site, and what a great bunch of helpful folks there are around here.

I was hoping you might be able to spread some of that knowledge this way...

I presently live in Tennessee, but have accepted an emergency medicine position in the St. Joseph, Missouri area and we'll be relocating there in the next few months. We're house-hunting as we speak, so I thought now might be a good time to ask a few questions about pond building and so forth...

I see there are a few folks from Missouri on the forums here who have built ponds, and their posts have been most helpful. If they happen to read these posts, I'd love to hear their input. But I'd love to hear EVERYONE'S input.

This home is going to be our "forever" home, so I want it to be right. We're going to purchasing 40 to 60 acres or so, and we'd like to have a large pond...like to the tune of 8 to 12 acres. Large enough for a wide variety of recreational activities.

As I understand from reading some of the other posts here, the Missouri Dept of Conservation can prove an invaluable resource in pond construction, and I'd love to hear, specifically, how I can utilize them (re: consulting expertise, construction assistance, management, etc.). I'd also like to hear what the limitations of their assistance are, and what I should watch out for or avoid.

Is there any advice anyone can give me regarding picking out a good spot for such a pond? I'm sure, given the size of this pond, that the lay of the land is an essential element. I was kind of wondering if I were to pick out some crop land that was in a rolling hills area without a lot of timber, if that might be a good site (I certainly realize that a pond of this scope must have a good inflow of water as well as a good outlet should all hell break loose...my downstream neighbors would be most appreciative of proper planning, I imagine).

So if I were to find such a spot, with little timber, would that make it much more cost effective with regard to grading for the pond? And somebody mentioned (sorry, don't recall who), that the MO Dept. of Conservation will also plant trees at their expense? So would it be possible for them to plant trees in the area around the pond (not immediately adjacent to...but in the area surrounding..)?

Any other advice regarding stocking, management would be most appreciated. It might seem a bit premature to some for me to be asking these questions, but I'm a firm believer in the old addage "...an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Might as well get my thinking straight before I even buy the land the pond will be on.

Sorry for the lengthy post. I appreciate your feedback and the great forum!

Best regards,

Mac

WELCOME BIG MAC! I am sure the Missouri people will be home from the bars soon and will give you some good advice.

I lived in Missouri for 10 years...so your comments about "coming home from the bars" are well taken. Then again, you have to remember I'm moving from Tennessee, where illegal distillery and sipping moonshine while rocking on the front porch of a shanty has been perfected to a fine art (ummm...not that I would partake in such immoral behaviors...).

P.S. Two posts...and I'm already tired of being a "fingerling". Who can I slip a few bucks to in order to forgo the normal process and go straight to "lunker"?

Big Mac, I believe you'll want to check with the farm service agency for the county you want to purchase land in. They should have a qualified employee that will visit your property and provide great advice on pond locations, cost shares etc.
Stop by the fsa office and they can provide a map showing rock and other soil types for their county. I found out after I purchased a farm that the ground had to much rock to build a good pond, sold that place and did a little more homework before purchasing the next farm. I own 130 acres east of St.Joe about 40 miles, the contractor that built my pond I highly recommend, let me know if you would like his info.

Thanks for the reply. I think you may prove to be a great resource. The land we're looking at is in the Cameron to Chillicothe area. I'm glad to hear you post, because it has been hard for me to imagine, to this point, that it would be difficult to find soil that is not well suited to pond building. There seems to be a large number of large ponds (10+ acres) in the general area we're looking, so it seemed to me that the soil in the area seemed well suited (generally speaking) to pond building. I'm glad to hear from you that you still have to be cautious in this area.

I would be most grateful if you could pass on the names of any folks you have found helpful. And I'd be thankful for any other advice you can offer.

Mac

Howdy Big Mac!

You'll become a Lunker at ten posts.

I believe the next milestone is at 10,000.

What comes after lunker? State Record? Mort?

I like this guy already.

Welcome to Pond Boss, Mac, we're glad you found us.

I never really know where to put the commas. Should that have one comma? Two commas? No commas? I don't know. They're cheap so I put two in.

jeffhasapunctuationmark

Actually, after Mac, there should be a semi-colon;. 2 short sentences.

Mrs. Brady...you,remember,your,grammar-teacher!?

Just great....
Next it's gonna be Burgermeister taking Big Mac down to Ronald McDonald pond to check the minnow traps for fry(s).

(groan)

...as Bski skulks away wearing an evil grimace

... as popular support rallys around him.

nyuk nyuk

Pretty sure it's supposed to be...

Welcome to Pond Boss, Mac. We're glad you found us.

My father is an English professor, so I can forward this on to him for official verification if it really matters...

NAWWWW...

However, I would like to point out that commas are not always inexpensive. For instance...let's say you are writing a check to a general contractor for doing a few days work on your pond...and you go to write the check...and because you've been supervising his excavation technique from the rocking chair of your shanty, and having put a significant dent in the moonshine jug...you write him a check for one-thousand dollars that reads $10,000...

So you see, you must pay closer attention to commas in certain circumstances...

Wow, I didn't realize that I would spark a puncuation debate. Actually I like the two sentence and one comma structure Big Mac. It looks cleaner and neater.

!?';:"". (don't mind me I'm just playing with my puncuation marks).

Welcome to the forum,MAC.If youll send me a check for $10,000 I'll see you go to lunker status as soon as the check clears.

Okay, had some questions about a property I'm looking at. Was wondering how conducive this property might be to building a pond. This property is 12 acres...not as big as we were wanting. But, it has a new home, nice pool, a pool house (to accommodate the in-laws), it's about 30 minutes from my work, and it's 1.5 miles away from a very large lake and recreational area. So, it's got a lot more good than bad going for it.

Here is a satellite view of the property. The house is at the end of the driveway shaped like a fish hook. You can see a small area of water to the right of the home, where they were perhaps intending a pond to be??



This next image show's a bird's eye perspective of the property. It shows the back of the home, the swimming pool and the pool house.



This next picture shows the house from a different perspective. The red arrow points to the house. You can see the existing puddle (pond?) to the left of the home. You can also see there is a decent size stream to the left of where the pond would go, which would create a good outflow area below the dam. I would be trying to build an approximate 3 acre pond.



Here is the same photo with approximate placement of the pond.



Here is what I believe to be the approximate property line around the property, with approximate placement of the pond indicated. The little red box indicates location of the pool house, and the little blue area to the left of the pond indicates location of the pool.



Finally, here is a topo map of the property, with same markings for placement of pond, pool house and pool.



So I'm wondering...does this property look like it might support an approx 3 acre pond? If there is not enough natural run-off, what are my options...could I dig a well and keep the pond full that way?

Your thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated!!!

I think it looks like a classic run-off scenario to support a pond. Can you provide the topo without the blue pond? Maybe just the outline? I'd like to see the topo lines as they run thru the proposed pondsite.

Yeah, I can do that. I'm at work, and can't do it from here. I'll get it done when I get home tonight.

I appreciate your response!

Mac

Some food for thought...
One of the dozens of properties that we researched for a pond was a similar situation. The pond would be adjacent to a creek. The issues came up relative to the hydrology of the soils in the bottom land. The NRCS checked the maps and said that the entire area at the level of the creek was mapped as wetland. It ran up into the surrounding region at elevations higher than the creek. Since the pond dam required reaching down close to the creek area, it would have been into the higher regions of what was mapped as wetland. I asked how soils that were 10 - 20 feet higher than the creek could be considered wetland? It all came down to hydrology. It gets complicated, but, in layman's terms, something to do with the amount of moisture in the soils for a given period thru the year. Anyway, they told me I was messing with stuff that would need DNR and likely ACoE approval. I made those phone calls to both the DNR and ACoE and it started gettin' scary: permits and mitigation of the affected wetlands (find another comparable area and convert it to wetlands). The potential hoops shut it down quickly for me.

Hmmmm....I'll have to look further into the wetlands issue. It had occurred to me that I would have to consider the potential flood stages of the creek as it relates to the dam, but I would have thought the proposed pond site was far enough away from that creek so I wouldn't have those issues...but maybe I'm wrong.

Here's the outline of the approximate pond location.

Do your research now, reap the rewards down the road. It will be easier(and cheaper)to do before you move the first shovel of dirt. Check with your county drainage department and DNR etc. Also remember the amount of work it will take to keep the site up. Algea control, leaf removal, Cattail control etc. will become a task on a 3 acre plus pond. My pond is just a big puddle, but everytime my good friend (who has a much larger pond) comes to visit he always comments that he wishes his pond wasn't so darn big cause the maintenace cost and time is a killer.

Actually, I kind of thought that's what I was doing...

...my research now, to save me headaches down the road (as in posting pictures of a property I have not yet even purchased because I want to know whether the pond I want is feasible on this property).

I understand that ponds do not manage themselves and a fair amount of labor must be expended...but really, that kind of stuff isn't "work" to me. It's relaxation. I "work" in an emergency department, dealing with one catastrophe after another...car accidents, heart attacks, strokes, stitches, flu, obstructed bowels, pneumonia...giving bad news to families...12 hours at a time, year round. That's my work.

Getting out in the sunshine (even when it involves a little back-straining labor and puddles of sweat), connecting with nature, getting to spend some quality time with my 6 kids (and eventually my many grandkids), helping them to see and understand the more important things in life..and perhaps occasionally hooking into a monster bass, catfish or bluegill...that's not so much work, in my book. That's an escape from the reality of my daily grind.

I honestly don't mean any of this to sound argumentative. Just meaning to point out that one man's labor is another man's love.

I'm not encouraged by the way each draw runs up onto the neighboring properties. To get any kind of pond depth, you will either be into the bottom land or backing up water onto your neighbors.
The creek that runs thru your property looks like it can be a wildcat when it rains hard. I'm gonna guess that you might be in for issues by gettin' too close to it. Moving uphill puts you into your neighbor's. You can't dam up their draws unless you can provide a drainage system for each; big engineering job.

Big Mac,

When you have a couple hours to waste check out this site.

http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx

It shows you the soil types and the things that are associated with that soil type.

You might have a better spot between the house and the main road. It will be a smaller pond; maybe an acre p/m. Don't discount a 1 ac pond.

Fascinating site (although I think it's going to take me more than a couple of hours to understand what I'm reading)

In the section that gives you the ability to determine suitability for pond placement, I got this data related to my proposed pond site placement (the area inside the red box indicates the soil type between the house and the stream behind it, where the pond would be located): What does this mean????

So if I understand what you're saying, there may not be sufficient run-off from adjacent land? What if I had a well to keep the pond full???

I'm not sure about that creek...I'm going to have to look into it. I wouldn't think it would see a lot of flash-flooding because this area doesn't seem to have drastic changes in elevation and there are several such streams in this area. However, this area has also seen a 500-year flood within the past 10 to 15 years, so I could see how high the water came up out of the stream at that point....

When you first get the soil map click on that soil type and it will give you more info.

I looked up that soil type and it said that the soil soaks up the water which will give you less runoff but there is clay present.

Okay...so I looked through some more things on this site (again...very cool site...thanks for the link), and according to this site...

Soil conditions here are quite favorable to pond excavation, with the only limiting factor being the slope (e.g., I guess not adequate run-off). However, this site also states that this piece of land has no risk of flooding (not in the 500-yr flood plain).

This area is also fairly eroded, which would seem to make it easier to get help from the State of Missouri for financial / engineering support in construction (erosion control and all)

Given the stream behind this proposed site for drainage below the dam, the biggest limiting factor seems to be...WATER.

Hmmmm...now how do I find out about the feasibility of digging a well on this site to keep water in the pond???? Thinking...thinking...

I looked at a different thing and you won't have to worry about the soil soaking up all of the water if the rest of the soil in the watershed is similar.

Here is another link that lets you find out the area of the watershed. Place a point on both sides of the proposed dam and the place more points on the upper end of the watershed.

http://acme.com/planimeter/

I don't think there's much issue with enough drainage to feed a pond. What I'm concerned for is at what point the water level will move across the property boundary as it creeps up the bottom of each draw (ravine) that comes in from your neighbors on the north and south side.

Thanks, Chris. I'll check out this site as soon as I get the first site figured out. LOL Lots and lots of good info coming now!

I'm confused. Shouldn't I be able to prevent the water from going onto my neighbors' property with proper pond design and an outlet that regulates maximum pond level?????

I assume that your topo is 10' elevation for every graduated line. You would have to dig so far down to keep the water off your neighbor that you might be flirting with the creek level.

By the way...if someone could answer this question for me...

IF I were well-feed the pond, would it give me more control over not only consistent water levels in the pond, but pond design (i.e., I could dig a bowl and not worry about encroaching upon neighboring properties)?

The thing is, I think I'll need to end up digging a well on this property, regardless. My wife likes "green acres", and I would likely run irrigation along a significant portion of the property. Otherwise, I would have insane water bills every month (like I do now). This property would have lots of grass to water, a swimming pool, and a decent size pond...just makes financial sense to dig a well, I think.

For the sake of accuracy, I pulled up the USGS topo map, and I placed satellite image above it. Red square represents approx property lines, blue oval represents approximate pond site. I don't know that much about reading these things, so I hope this makes it easier for you to accurately interpret the terrain and such.

Mac

Mac, I believe in northern mo the rule of thumb is 15 acres of watershed to feed a 1 acre pond. As for the well, 1 acre of water 1 inch thick is 27,000 gallons, I think it might be tough to maintain that large of pond with a well.
I'm pretty sure you could call the local fsa and get a courtesy visit to help you out.

OK Mac...that's a little better. Your first map had your property lines shifted further north. This last topo (above) seems to indicate that you are still in the game as far as keeping the water onto your parcel. The issuse still remain regarding getting too close to the creek level. As you see, some of the proposed boundary touches the same level as the creek. You will be building a dam across this area. If this is indeed the case (and does create legal and engineering problems), your project could still be viable by pulling the eastern pondsite boundary uphill a bit and to the west.
-
(edit; see that smaller pond directly south? They did the same thing, at the same level)
Your next step should be the NRCS for oversight and guidance.

Spoke with a very nice and helpful gentleman on the phone today—Jim VanDyke, with the Missouri Water Resources Center, a division of the MO DNR. Wow! Did this guy have a lot of information at his finger tips… If any of you need information about water and soil in MO, I would highly recommend calling this guy…super nice guy, and willing to spend as much time as you need answering questions.


He was able to give me a fair amount of good news. He said the soil in this are is some of the best for pond building in the state. He used a bunch of fancy words and terms I didn’t really understand, but then summarized it by saying the soil was glacial and to a fair depth, meaning it would be easy to dig a deep pond if I wanted to because I wouldn’t have to worry about running into rock. He also said that this soil had very low seepage—so much so that I shouldn’t need to line the bottom of the pond with clay or other materials to prevent seepage.

He pulled my property up on his computer and looked at the lay of the land for me. He said if I was planning on building a 3 acre pond on my property in the middle of my property, I would have an approximate 10:1 acre runoff ratio. If I moved the pond further east, toward the stream at the back of the property, that ratio would be closer to 15:1 (which he said is just about ideal…higher than that, he said, would lend concerns to dam erosion from over-topping). I expressed concern to him about building the dam too close to that stream, and whether that might create an opportunity for dam erosion when the stream ran high. He said it didn’t look like it would likely be a problem to him, but advised I double check with the Soil Conservation Service.

On the down side, he said this is not a good area at all to dig a well. He was able to pull up all of the wells in the area built since the mid 1980s. They all hit water at 70 to 100 feet depth, but the highest rate of GPM was 10…which ain’t much water flow. There was an oil drilling test site approx ¼ mile from my property, and they didn’t hit any higher water flow rates than that when they drilled to 700 feet. Plus, the water in this area is highly mineralized, and would perhaps be conducive to irrigation of crops, but he would not recommend putting it into a pond as it would mineralize the pond as the water evaporated. His advice was don’t dig a well, dig the pond deep in order to retain volume of water as evaporation occurred.

Does all this sound right to you folks???

That sounds right on the money to me, it looks like you may of found a home. Is the aeriel by Cameron or Chillicothe?.

Trimble, actually. On the eastern side of Smithville Lake (the red dot on the map below).



After talking to this guy today, I think this would be the best spot (approximately) for the pond. It would be around 2.7 acres or so, and would have about a 12:1 runoff ratio.



My wife is still not 100% sold on this home. She thinks she also likes another home up by Edgerton, MO. The land around this home she likes (96 acres) is incredible, and I wouldn't have any problem at all finding many suitable sites for large ponds. So I guess I'll have to wait and see what my wife (aka "boss") tells me we're going to do.

Here's the other property my wife is interested in...the outlined area in red is about 50 acres...which is only half the acreage of this property. I can't even tell where the other half of the property lies...

...and, as seen from the topo map, no problem building a big pond on this site...

Forgot...ran across a pretty cool pond building and management guide put out by the State of Missouri today...perhaps others have already seen it. Seems to have some pretty useful information in it, so thought I'd post a link to the publication in the event someone might find it useful...

http://mdc4.mdc.mo.gov/Documents/22.pdf

Thanks for posting that link Big. There are quite a few good pond publications available and I always like adding to my library of pond material. Ewest has created a thread in the archives with a bunch of these publications. If you haven't seen it already check it out.

Archive thread of pond publications

SEE I told you. Once these people quit sponsering Bud they seem to be quite helpful.

Mac:

Whatever you build and where ever it ends up, keep the Natural Resources Conservation Service (NRCS) folks in the loop. They're a division of USDA and, while some have had less than stellar experiences with them, all the folks I've talked with over the years have been great help.

They came out and surveyed my property several times (FREE!) to help me decide exactly where to lay my ponds. 50% cost share on one and 10 yr interest free loan on the other...

They have their hands on the federal "money bag"...i.e., they can steer you towards many sources of federal cost-share funds. Granted, the bag ain't so large right now, but things change every year.

Welcome...from Iowa. Ponds are a blast!

NRCS guy in my area said they wouldn't cost share for a pond. They will for terracing, etc... Things to keep the dirt in the fields but not for ponds. I will have to check on the interest free loan. Maybe I didn't ask the right questions.

No, the NRCS pulled away from ponds 3 or 4 years ago.

Where do you look for the ten year intrest free loans?