Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Rainbow Trout dying 4 days after stocking

This is a unique lake. It is a quarry that is about 1.5 acres with ¾ in 2-4 foot deep water with rock underneath. One hole is 55 foot deep. Super clear I mean probably 20 foot visibility. We checked pH acidic at 5.6, conductivity very high for our area 140. DO 10.2 97% saturation. Alkalinity <4 ppm. I thought it was not great for growing fish but ok to try some trout for seasonal means. They were stocked last Tuesday started dying on sat.

I have some ideas but any idea what could have caused the death? Why delayed 4 days or so? He said fish almost seem like the trout are trying to get out of water. Divers say the water burns your eyes. Anything we can check for that might also be correctable or does he just need to not ever concern himself with growing fish here? He does not want to spend good money chasing thoughts to just end up with same result of no possible fish. I feel bad b/c I told thought it was ok and he stocked 200 trout so out quite a bit of money. I appreciate your thoughts.

Greg, the only thoughts I have are that there are possible large swings in PH due to the low alkalinity. I imagine temp. isn't the problem with the cool weather.
My pond is usually less than 5.5 PH, and the trout have no problems with it.
Hope you can find the problem.

Greg,

What kind of PH did the trout come from? Did you acclimate the fish before you planted them? Fish attempting to jump out of the water is a symptom of PH shock. I know it usually happens before 4 days but maybe this is a chronic stress on them?

Eyes burning the Diver's? Maybe some other water chemistry factors like excessive sulfides or natural ammonia?

Who knows maybe somebody used the pit as a dump of some kind at one time?

AP's fish may be adapted to his PH because they come from similar PH water?

They have been in my holdign ponds since Nov. It coudl be pH, it was quite a bit more acidic. That coudl explain burning eyes as well. I thought that as well. ALkalinity low in both places at less than 10 pppm here as well. Yes not temp. It got to 70 this weekend but water temp was still 48 yesterday and they make it through June in most ponds around middel GA.

Any type of heavy metals you think? ONly one I thought could cause direct toxicity might be copper. Why woudl copper be high though? Thanks guys that helps.

Greg, I think I would send some of that stuff for a full lab test. Burning eyes sounds like something that needs to be fixed.

You didn't mention effects on other fish if any.

DD1 he has no other fish. I should have stocked less fish for trial but we charged $200 del just to get to Macon so we decided to get 200 instead of just 50. He does not want to spend too much on testing.

Not primary reason for land. He hunts it but would like to have fish if possible. Im just trying to learn here from this mistake and hoped someone might have insight on rock quarry chemistry, etc.

What kind of rock quarry? (May be a stupid question, something someone in the area would automatically know.) Limestone would have quite a different affect on water quality than, say, granite, I'd think.

DIED & george might have some insight.

Where is the place Greg?

This is what came to my mind:

http://www.kgs.ku.edu/Extension/ozark/mining.html

even if the place is not technically w/in the tri-state district, the problems could be analagous (i.e. exposed sulfide/lead-zinc type deposits could easily create acid water in an old limestone quarry).

maybe that pH of 5 is reflecting a much more concentrated acid stream influent that is being diluted in the pit water.

here is a passage from the link above:
"The hundred years of mining also left the region with serious environmental problems. When the mines closed, the pumping stopped, and the abandoned tunnels filled with water. The water in these tunnels became contaminated by iron sulfide (from pyrite and marcasite), which remained in the mine walls or was left behind by the miners, as well as by other metallic sulfides found in the mines. In addition to becoming very acidic, the water contained dissolved metals, some of which are very toxic. This water, in turn, contaminated local ground water, springs, and surface water."

the type of rock and any history would be helpful. he might want to test that water not just for fish, but to evaluate consequences of prolonged human exposure.

macon, ga thanks died. I will pass this info on to him tommorrow.

Kaolin is one of Georgia's largest natural resources. According to the U.S. Geological Survey, more than 8 million metric tons of kaolin are mined from Georgia each year, with an estimated value of more than $1 billion. Georgia is by far the leading clay-producing state in America and is recognized as a world leader in the mining, production, processing, and application of kaolin products.

The word kaolin is derived from the name of the Chinese town Kao-Ling (or Gaoling, "high ridge"), located in the Jiangxi Province of southeast China, where the written description of porcelain can be found.

The word kaolin is now used as a loose trade and geologic term to refer to white clayey rock that is predominantly composed of Kaolin Group (khandite) minerals. The most common constituent is the mineral kaolinite. Kaolinite is a layered silocate made of alternating sheets of octahedrally coordinated aluminum and tetrahedrally coordinated silicon that are bonded by hydroxyl groups. Kaolinite is represented by the chemical formula Al2Si2O5(OH)4, and it most often occurs as clay-sized, platelike, hexagonally shaped crystals.

Georgia kaolin deposits occur in Late Cretaceous (about 100 million to 65 million years ago) to Early Paleocene (65 million to 45 million years ago)
"Hard" Kaolin
sedimentary rocks whose sediments were derived from weathered igneous and metamorphic rocks of the Georgia Piedmont geologic province. During these ancient times, sediments were transported by rivers to coastline deltas and to estuarine and back-barrier island locations. Relative sea-level changes provided environments of deposition favorable for the accumulation of the lens-shaped geometry of the present-day deposits. Since then further mineralogical changes have occurred to the sediments. The varied and complex geologic history that different kaolin deposits have experienced results in an array of formation properties.

Kaolin in Georgia is generally found in a northeast to southwest band of deposits extending from Augusta to Macon to Columbus. This belt parallels the fall line, which marks the boundary between the Piedmont and the Coastal Plain. Deposits are of three types: (1) "soft" kaolin, which breaks easily and is soapy in texture; (2) "hard" kaolin, which is more finely grained, difficult to break, and jagged in texture; and (3) "flint" kaolin, which has no commercial value because its high opaline silica content makes it extremely hard. Kaolin mining activities are restricted to near-surface (less than 150 meters) ore bodies that are 3 to 15 meters thick. Once the ore has been extracted, mine reclamation activities are conducted to restore the landscape to a pristine state.

Kaolin is most commonly used in the paper-coating industry. It is also used as a filler (added to plastics, for example, and rubber compounds),

as a pigment additive in paints, in ceramics (tile, chinaware, and bathroom toilets and sinks), and in pharmaceuticals. Depending upon the application, kaolins are typically processed to remove such naturally coexisting materials as quartz, iron oxides, titanium oxides, other clay minerals, and organic matter.

Wow! I thought I was back in my geology class at Penn State... Good stuff!

great post ewest. i'm glad someone w/ "east coast" expertise chimed in. kaolin could explain alot of things including the high conductivity, but low alkalinity values greg posted up top. can you elaborate more on this ewest?

i am a bit surprised at the eye irritation part, kaolin dust would cause eye irritation, but greg said the water is clear, so unless it was suspended particles somehow, i dont get that part unless its simply the pH.

greg, i hope you see this before you scare the owner w/ my post, it may be as simple as a kaolin pit and not "hard rock" acid mine leach. rock type and site history will undoubtedly tell the story.

DIED I am no chemist. It could easily be some other type of mine. I noticed the Al and know it can raise acidity quickly. I have no idea how it would effect RT as a metal. From what I quickly read the Al leaches (correct term?)out in water. Process also involves other metals. Still checking. If the clay (buffering) part is removed then that enhances Al and the other deposits which otherwise make the soil/land a natural 4 alkalinity. Without the buffering clay it might have a 1 alkalinity. Just guessing here.

A portion of the soils in the active mine site were classified as Udorthents-Arents complex as a result of kaolin mining. These soils were extremely acidic and low in organic matter and permeability. They were not suitable for cultivating crops, for use as grasslands, timberlands, or for urban development. The land would have eroded and remained useless without proper reclamation. This in turn required research and persistent maintenance on the part of the mining company

From what I have studied about Alum application, Aluminum is dissolved in acidiic water and becomes quite toxic. If the PH can be raised with something like Ag Lime. the Aluminum should precipitate out of the water and re-solidify.

Any chance equipment was left abandoned in the pit? Hundreds of 75+ year old rock quarries in central missouri were dumping grounds for thousands of lead-acid batteries and old cars, equipment, etc.

Not sure where to begin. Thanks. Great information on kaolin. I have several clients with kaolin pits. Very acidic correctable with 6 tons of lime or more. BTW they are beautiful green/blue color. Look back at Matt’s post about client on PB with kaolin pit. We have RT in kaolin pit right now. They do just fine with feeding and it has alkalinity at 25 ppm due to lime application.
This is not kaolin. Probably more of what died described. I would guess granitite but never taken geology class. It could indeed have old equipment, batteries, etc. Thanks for all the efforts in helping. I will let you know what client says.

looking forward to what he has to say greg, sounds like a very interesting situation.

in light of ewest's post, i am remiss for not mentioning our local kaolin pits. we have extensive kaolin deposits (the Ione Formation) in amador county....very close to my area. these deposits were laid down in a deltaic environment some 30 to 60 million yrs ago. the Ione Fm. is mined mostly for its clay but also other aggregates...sand, gravel...... from what i know, the groundwater filled pits left over from the open pit mining support really healthy fisheries from trout to bass.

edit....i used Ione Fm. kaolin to help "fix" my pond in 05, and never considered any chemical consequences, the GSF dont seem to mind

GSF can live in any environment so that does not show me much,

If indeed kalinitic type soil, it is very acidic and not helathy at all. BUT correctable not sure that is the case with this area.

That is because GSF are the finest of all fish!

Client said he thinks they are all dead. He is checking on history of the quarry. He said ntothing is even eating the dead trout. He is handling it better than I would. I can only wish all my clients were as understanding. I will let you know if we get any good info on what is going on there. I told him this summer I will come buy for free when in the area and drop in a few bluegill and see what they do.

I am part of a family trust I help run which owns 3500 acres(20 tracts)in middle Georgia. Lots of beneficaries so don't be too impressed. We currently have 6 active kaolin mines and have looked into making lakes out of some of them. We probably will not because we would rather go back to timber farming. The one interesting thing I found out about the kaolin lakes is that watershed is not an issue. When the mines are dug springs are always hit. Pumps are run all the time to keep the mine and equipment dry. Sometimes this goes on for 10+ years. When the kaolin lease runs out pull the plug on the pump and you have a lake.
Bill

hi mr. duggan, thats interesting info (and i'm impressed anyway.......i'd love to be able to sit in the middle of 3500 acres any time i want to).....havent seen you post in a while, welcome back.

are there any other types of mines on the property?

Thanks Dave, it is 20 parcels in two counties, the largest is 700 acres. Multiple ownerships of some parcels. If anyone wants to know how to set up a family trust in which the heirs will still be cussing you 30 years after you pass away let me know.

Bill your alive. Your right about water levels they did not drop like many others in our drought.However we can nto get them any higher due to seepage into ground water. So it works both ways. When they are done mining many times what is left is some awesome fish habitat, islands, humps,points, channels, etc.

... just in case there might happen to be another dope like me that thinks kaolin is over the counter to help tighten up violinists
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Well....you'd be kinda right

Funny you say that Brettski I saw "white dirt" for sale in a south Georgia store(next to the boiled peanuts Greg) last summer. It's been since I was a kid that I've seen that.