Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Geothermal Heat Pump

Jeff, thanks for the intro a couple of days ago. Sorry, just got around to checking this out. I do have a split zone Waterfurnace system. If I remember correctly, one unit is four ton and the other is two. I decided to go with the open loop system because I was fearful of my fishies getting a little too chilly in the winter and was supposed to be more efficient than closed.

$97 electric bill sounds pretty good though, mine was $200 last month for about 4000 sq. ft. I haven't noticed prolonged light dimming and have not seen the heat strip indicator light on over the past 10 days. I have been paying attention.

One thing that I can tell any of you that suspect emergency heat strip activation... You will definitely know it when the bill comes! Mine was installed just before last winter. Unfortunately, they installed the dump pipes below the surface of the pond. Pond froze, then shut down water circulation. System ran all winter on emergency heaters. Bill averaged $800 to $1100 every month! Yes I ended up getting reimbursed every dime.

How else can I help?

Has anybody attempted and/or succeeded in installing a geothermal HVAC system as DIY?
If not, has anybody witnessed the installation and willing to offer personal thoughts regarding the difficulty level for a DIY project?
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For the smaller, tight, well insulated pond home we are dreaming of, I would love to try something like this.

Brettski,

If you have a sustainable watertable, look into the open loop system. My opinion is that there are more advantages than disadvantages compared to closed loop. This starts with a fraction of the install labor & material costs.

Another consideration might be an air-to-air heat pump for less labor and costs. I have a carrier heat pump for my 3 car garage and bonus room above. Can't tell you how good it is or isn't. I have only started the system a couple of times since it was installed 15 months ago.

Blaine, if I get an electric bill like you're getting--you better know they will pay! Ryan, we don't see an indicator light for letting us know when the heat strips kick in; however, if we turn them on manually, the whole backdrop turns red on the thermostat. Geo people coming back on the 27th; hope to get this issue resolved (don't want the house to burn down). My other option if they don't get it fixed is get another electrician to look at it. It just isn't right that the house lights stay dim like that.

MarkECIN,

My thermostats are Honeywell touchscreen style VisionPRO's model TH8000 Series. When emergency heaters kick on a five petal daisy shaped symbol illuminates in the upper right corner of the plastic frame around the touch screen. It can only be seen when illuminated.

Another way to know when emegency heater comes on is to look at the zone control circuit board mounted on the front of the air handler itself. There should be 5-6 red LED lights on the right. If the one under "AUX HEAT" is illuminated, Well...

Do you really only have $100 monthly electric bills? How many sq. ft are you heating? Makes me wonder if I have a problem at $200 per month.

Blaine, my last electric bill was from 11/20/08-12/30/08; 40 days; and 1,450 kw. We are heating 2500 sf living area, (cathedral ceiling in two rooms) and we have the temperature set at 72 degrees. Our kw avg usage is up 38% roughly so I'm going to say geo cost us an addl $40-$50 a month to run vs what our electric bill used to be.

Our thermostat is a ClimateMaster brand; Mark is more familiar with it than me (I won't touch it ). It would be nice to be able to tell from the thermosat when Aux Heaters kick in and not have to go down to the basement. We just want to make sure the Aux Heaters aren't causing the dimming problem...not to mention, I had concerns about the electric bill until I got the recent one...will be interesting to see the next one is though as we have had minus 18 and single digits a lot the last couple of weeks here. The geo people are coming out on the 27th and want to check their settings etc before sending out the electrician.

Other than that, we do like what we are experiencing with the geo overall...the house is a lot more comfortable, we keep the termpature higher than we did with LP (68 degrees); definite $$$s savings and it will pay for itself in 5 years. We thought maybe I would find it uncomfortable with the fan running constant with air flow, but honestly, it's not noticeable and I must say, my sinuses seem to like it. I'd recommend geo.

ClimateMaster huh? Funny you mention.. I happen to be having lunch in Fort Wayne tomorrow with ClimateMasters VP of National Sales. Kind of a networking meeting. Anything you want me to ask him for you? Need to know by 9:30 AM, that is when I get on the road.

Yes, please...his thoughts....
1. How do you know when the heat strips are on?
2. Should the heat strips be dimming the lights in the house whereas they stay dimmed?
3. Should the heat strips not run if it's 20 degress outside (shouldn't the geo be keeping up)? We think they're coming on.

Thanks. d

I'll ask him. Can you PM your telephone number in case he needs more info? I'll PM you my cell #. I'll be on the road between 9:30 and 11:30.

I have a Climate Master heating over 4K sq. ft. if you're counting the basement. All electric, my bill has hovered between $100 and $150 every month year round (including the pond aerator for three seasons) except December's bill.My better half and daughter where home all day and the thermostat was set at a sweltering 74 deg. Bill for December was a little over almost $250! Still a lot better than the farmhouse that was running $5K/yr in propane alone.

I sure like the idea of these geothermal systems. Keep the info coming!

Ryan, that's awesome savings! I should get the electric bill that covers most of Dec and first of January pretty soon here. I was running over $3,200 a year (and keeping the house at a cold 68). I didn't see it getting better. I figure my savings will run $2,700 to $3,000 a year -- of course, things always go up it seems.

MarkECIN,

Sorry for the delay. Unfortunately, there were way too many unknown technical factors for him to be able to diagnose at the lunch table. Things like calculated BTU loss for house, size and model of geo. unit, electrical service capacity, house wiring, etc. etc. Also, I didn't realize that my guy was in the industrial division, not residential.

Sorry that I couldn't be of more help but it sounds like you are on the right path by scheduling the service call for next week. I would be interested in knowing how it turns out.

By the way... My electric bill more than doubled to $480 for the last billing cycle. Ouch! I didn't notice the emergency power being activated at any time. Granted, it has been cold in the midwest over the past 4-5 weeks but has anyone else seen dramatic spikes in their energy bills for the previous billing cycle? Especially interested in responses from geothermal owners.

I'll know soon enough...electric bill should be forthcoming and the geo guy Tuesday. Thank you for asking though, I'm always listening to what others have problems with.

As I reported before, we heat about 3600 sqft, single floor no basement and our heating bill is usually less than $100 even in December and January. Total house electric bill is usually around $250. Typical HP has about 400% efficiency while heating strips have 100%. Therefore heating strips of the same heating power as the HP will quadruple electric power consumption for the time they are on. Our utility in Iowa charges 4.1 cent/kWh for the HP and 11 cent/kWh for the other power consumption. If your heating strips are connected to the "other than HP" meter you will get charged the higher rate.

Well it is an aircraft hanger in the sense that the garage door is 36 ft wide and the garage can accomodate pretty much any 4 seater or smaller aircraft. To have an airplane and own landing strip was my dream since my childhood and it is my retirement project. Therefore we decided to build an aircraft hanger and live in it.

http://www2.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/...QHglfmUzSRtpw--

Very cool retirement project.

Ah! Blaine, we got answer! Thanks everyone, now here is what we found out about the problem we were having with the goethermal system.

The geo technician came today and checked everything out again. We found out we couldn't hold 220 volts with everything on in the house. So, the electric company, was called by the geo tech who talked to them and the electric company came out and put a larger transformer by the road. That should take care of it.

Heat strips we found out come on two at a time and/or four at a time--we didn't know they work that way (I think someone in a much earlier post noted same). Now don't ask me anything about the Phase I, II etc--over my head!

I really, really think POND BOSS needs to add a section for Geothermal (for all us pondmeisters to share our wealth of knowledge (or lack thereof). Others asked and I'm asking too.

Were the heat strips coming on because of a voltage drop, or because the compressors were unable to keep up or maintain efficiency due to the insufficient current? How many AMPs of service are you set up for? 200? 400?

I like the idea of a dedicated forum for geothermal discussion.

200 amp service. My hubby said the geo wasn't keeping the house warm enough so the strips would kick on (thus what they are designed for). Guess, we'll just have to monitor it some more (see what the next couple of electric bills are). Really nothing in our thermostat for letting us know if heat strips on. The lights aren't dimming anymore (it was really noticeable before today and we were highly concerned about that).

In forced air system the heating strips come on when room temperature is several degrees less than SP. In example it might happen when the program increases the SP in the morning. The strips can heat the air to much higher temperature than the Heat pump so that way the system is able to increase the room temperature rapidly (take the chill out). Other possibility is to size the heat pump for about 80% of maximum (it is cheaper) and cover the deficit by the heat strips. The reasoning is that the extreme heating demand is relatively short and it is more cost effective to use cheaper heat pump and pay little for direct heat.

To answer your question: The heat strips use a lot of power and therefore the combined load of heat strips and the heat pump overloaded the transformer causing voltage drop.

Purposely undersizing the heat pump doesn't make much sense to me. Geothermal systems are most efficient when they are allowed to maintain a constant temperature. Programing a thermostat to cycle temps up and down around home activity actually will increase your electric bill. If the geothermal is sized right then the heat strips should rarely if ever activate.

Theoretically, an upgrade to the transformer only succeeded in treating the symptoms. It didn't fix the root cause being simultaneous heat source demand caused by an undersized heat pump. The electric co. just made it easier to draw more power. I thought that the whole idea of geothermal was to utilize the constant heat of the earth and cutting the energy consumption by reducing or eliminating electrical resistance heat generation.

I just don't agree with the techs diagnosis as I understand it. That would be like a recommendation to increase the throttle for a ship slowed by dropped anchor. Just my two cents for what it's worth. I was just looking for a little more clarification of the techs' diagnosis.

Please explain to me what an undersized heat pump would be. The only thing we ever heard size-wise was we have a 5 ton unit. We talked to a couple of geo people before we did this and all they ever talked was tonnage.

Much of this equation is determined by the how well the house is insulated and how tight it is.

Heat pumps come in various sizes from small units for home to large units for apartment buildings.
The reasoning is that smaller heat pump is cheaper, requires smaller less expensive heat exchanger and cycles less at warmer temperatures. Supplemental heaters operate only limited time during temperature extremes. This is European customary set up.
We have 100% sized unit that cycles during warmer weather and runs almost constantly during very low ambient temperatures. We also have supplemental heaters in the heat accumulator but the breaker is turned off already for several years and the heaters will be used only during malfunction of the HP.