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#145580 01/20/09 09:16 AM
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James Holt's thread about slot limits inspired me to post about a quick trip this weekend. I went out to my mom's place (east of San Antonio) on Sunday. The pond had the classic stunted LMB problem when I started managing it a few years ago. I've been culling LMB and adding large 5-8" BG, but it is a slow process as I cannot get out there as often as I'd like. The pond is 4 acres when full, but right now it's probably 2-2.5 acres.

With the water so low and with fewer places for the forage to hide, I knew I needed to take more LMB out. I know there are BG, RES, and either HBG or GSF--the ones I've netted were too small for me to tell whether they're pure GSF or not. We did not stock the pond. It also has 15-20 large (up to 15 lbs) CC that I'm trying to take out. The big ones are smart. If you catch one or two, the others get lockjaw no matter what you try. Unfortunately, I don't have time to chart the Wrs of the LMB and log my catches when I'm out there, but angling plus the "eye test" quickly tells me the state of the pond.

The results: The LMB are growing (avg. size is now 13-14" instead of 9-10", but they are still VERY skinny. I culled 25 of the average-sized bass in a full afternoon of fishing. Anything "filletable" (10" or so) up to 1.5 pounds that looked thin came out. I could not catch any CCs this time.








Reversing a stunted LMB population is a chore when you do not live at the pond and do not have a lot of help managing it, but it's a fun challenge.
I also caught two LMB with what I think is a deformity that causes a curved spine. Here is one of them:





That is probably the most pathetic-looking LMB I've ever seen. \:\)
It seems to be a genetic deformity, but could this also result from a lack of nutrition? Can it be a result of genetic and nutritional deficincies? If the genetics of the pond have not been altered in awhile, could this be the result of inbreeding?


"Only after sorrow's hand has bowed your head will life become truly real to you; then you will acquire the noble spirituality which intensifies the reality of life. I go to an all-powerful God. Beyond that I have no knowledge--no fear--only faith."
davatsa #145604 01/20/09 11:20 AM
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Maybe the bent backs are due to injuries. But if they were identical in nature, I would have to go with genetics. Some fresh bass blood may be indicated in the future.

I wish I was close enough to help - as much for the uniform of the day (T-shirt and sunglasses) as for the fishing!

P.S. Those are skinny, even compared with the intentionally overcrowded LMB in my big BG pond.

Last edited by Theo Gallus; 01/20/09 11:21 AM.

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Theo Gallus #145614 01/20/09 11:45 AM
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davatsa Offline OP
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Thanks for the tips, Theo. I also wish you could come help...catching them is a ton of fun! It was so warm Sunday you could've caught them on topwaters.

They are extremely skinny, but they're also getting longer. That is what confuses me. They aren't "truly" stunted or else they would all be the same size and would be 10" or so, right?

The vast majority used to be around 9", but now the vast majority are 13-14". I'm also starting to catch more fish of different sizes. They're definitely getting longer, but they're staying skinny...that's what I don't fully understand. If they were truly stunted, wouldn't they be growing in girth as much as in length?

The other bass with a bent back was much smaller (maybe 7") and was definnitely a younger fish. That's what got me wondering whether it was nutrition or genetics that causes the deformity (or both).

I want to introduce new LMB genetics, but more LMB is the last thing this pond needs. I guess I'll keep culling and stocking larger BG, and maybe eventually I can add LMB.


"Only after sorrow's hand has bowed your head will life become truly real to you; then you will acquire the noble spirituality which intensifies the reality of life. I go to an all-powerful God. Beyond that I have no knowledge--no fear--only faith."
davatsa #145630 01/20/09 01:18 PM
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My skinny bass grow too. Really well fed ones (like DD's proverbial LMB that can go to sleep hungry and wake up full of forage) grow faster than yours or mine.

I figure instead of, say, 1000 hungry 9-inchers, you now have, say, 600 hungry 13-inchers. Progress.

SOP is, IIRC, adding new genetics after you beat your existing surplus down most of the way. Makes sense to me.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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Theo Gallus #145637 01/20/09 01:31 PM
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What's up with the beard?


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

Sunil #145645 01/20/09 03:01 PM
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His Wife must be out of town and his Daddy hasn't seen him lately. What is becoming of the younger generation?


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Wow, Looks like you had a lot of fun. I have the same problem with my pond. Two years ago I had tons of skinny 10 inch LMB now after removing roughly 90 lbs of LMB I have tons of skinny 12-14 inch LMB.

Congrats on the progress with the pond. It's always nice to see a plan working out.

I caught one of those deformed LMB out of my pond about 2 years ago. I thought he added character to the pond so I threw him back. I haven't caught him since then.It's always suprising to me to see those genetically deformed fish. They must realy be some scrappy fish to survive with those deformitys.



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 Originally Posted By: Sunil
What's up with the beard?

 Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
His Wife must be out of town and his Daddy hasn't seen him lately. What is becoming of the younger generation?

Naww, he's just getting a 20-year head start on a midlife crisis beard.

Fish Wife has been putting up with my seasonal growth for 10 years, stating that it is immeasurably better than if I'd bought a Corvette and got her pregnant again.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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 Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
His Wife must be out of town and his Daddy hasn't seen him lately. What is becoming of the younger generation?


That's funny, Dave. As "socially conservative" as ahvatsa is, he also grew a beard. ;\) We were hunting together, it was cold, and we decided to take the lazy route and not shave. We just kept being lazy after we got home.

I probably won't keep mine very long, but he's probably keeping his for awhile. My wife says she doesn't care and it's my decision, but we all know what that means.


"Only after sorrow's hand has bowed your head will life become truly real to you; then you will acquire the noble spirituality which intensifies the reality of life. I go to an all-powerful God. Beyond that I have no knowledge--no fear--only faith."
davatsa #145687 01/20/09 08:58 PM
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Hey it means "shave your face because you aren't getting near me with that hair on your face" at least that's what it means in my family. Plus having an 8 month old doesn't allow for facial hair, she's to grabby at my face.

Those deformities are actually due to a malfunction during egg development. In most cases those fish don't make it very long they are a little slower and are a classic wounded fish that usually gets taken care of before they reach adult hood. Other than that they aren't any different.

Keep up your managment project. You have come a long way. Eventually you will start seeing real results. At the point that you are not catching fish at phenomenal rates then you might consider stocking additional genetics. Until then remove as many of those remaining bass as possible.



Fisheries Biologist, Texoma Hatchery.
www.texomahatchery.com
Chad Fikes #145699 01/20/09 09:35 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Chad Fikes
Those deformities are actually due to a malfunction during egg development.

Damage to the blastula or embryo, like some cells knocked out (of alignment), Chad?


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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Theo Gallus #145705 01/20/09 09:54 PM
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Dave, thanks for posting your progress. This type of info is great for novices like me who have just begun to learn. One day I will have enough knowledge to grow some big bluegill.

P. Buckley #145712 01/20/09 10:28 PM
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davatsa Offline OP
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Thanks for all the responses, guys. Theo, Brett, Chad, and P. Buckley, I appreciate the words of affirmation.

It's a fun project for sure. I'm glad to see the progress, but this weekend told me I'm a long way from the goal. I'm actually o.k. with a bass heavy pond. The goal for this pond is to maintain good catch rates, not grow trophy bass. I would, however, like a little more variety in terms of fish size and age.

There are a few 2-3 pound bass, but it is rare to catch one. They're either 6 inches up to 1.5 pounds, or 5+ pounds. The largest bass I've caught in that pond was 8 pounds. From what I understand, a few very large bass (the ones that "made it" and can forage on the rest of the stunted ones) is common in a stunted bass pond.

My biggest concern is eliminating the large CCs. I don't mind a few of them, but they are wasting biomass and eating much of the available forage. I think getting them out will be a huge help. They're tough to catch anyway, so what fun is that?

Here's a pic of pond structure along the dam. The pond is VERY low.






You gotta take a break and have a little fun!






"Only after sorrow's hand has bowed your head will life become truly real to you; then you will acquire the noble spirituality which intensifies the reality of life. I go to an all-powerful God. Beyond that I have no knowledge--no fear--only faith."
davatsa #145719 01/21/09 12:15 AM
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Is that Commander K-9?

P. Buckley #145752 01/21/09 09:57 AM
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Grow all the facial hair you want davatsa just stop bending your fish.


JHAP
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Some good eating, all those bass lined up! One fine looking dog too! Mine's laying by my side as I type this...



CJBS2003 #145771 01/21/09 10:44 AM
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I don't really want to be the one to tell you this CJBS2003, but I think Satan has possessed your dog, the eyes are a dead give away.


JHAP
~~~~~~~~~~

"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
CJBS2003 #145773 01/21/09 10:50 AM
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What do you think your BG population is like during this time. You said your adding 5-8" are your buying them or transferring them from another pond?

How many bass do you think you average taking out per year?

I pulled out almost 200 out of a 4 acre pond a few years ago and it didn't make a difference. They looked just like yours and hit on every cast. This year im gonna add 1000 3-6" CNBG probably around May. I know its a little late but I'll still catch a few spawns and feel that it is more important to pull out a bunch of fish before I put in the CNBG then just dump them in around March and wonder how many original stockers got ate. Also I plan to have a floating dock in place with a feeder running by that time which would also help the BG along as soon as they are dropped in.

Only thing I guess I have going for me vs. your situation is from where I live I can hit my 4 acre pond with my driver and a decent swing. Plus I have a brother that can catch fish fishing with his eyes closed in the winter time.

good luck, Im right there with you doing the same thing your doing.


I SUBSCRIBE!!!!
chadwickz71 #145781 01/21/09 11:26 AM
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Hey Dave take it easy on the beards. http://www.lakework.com/photo_gallery/gallery2/v/Client+Fish/P1010059.JPG.html
At least davasta does not have gray in it like some of us.


Greg Grimes
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Greg Grimes #145783 01/21/09 11:30 AM
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Wow Greg, that bass is crazy big!


JHAP
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I remain highly suspicious that there are in fact two Greg Grimes. There is the scary-looking grizzly bear one often seen holding great big bass in photos at lakework.com, and the clean shaven one that can be encountered at PB Conferences, searching for sweet tea.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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Theo Gallus #145788 01/21/09 11:48 AM
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You see THeo I make Wendy happy this way. It is like having two men. This is probably davasta secret as well he just did not want anyone else to know about it.

JHAP that is the kind of bass davasta will have if he keeps up the harvest program. You can have them this big as well with a little more bluegil and little less GSF but as we say it is all about goals and I know your is to hold the world record GSF.


Greg Grimes
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Greg Grimes #145791 01/21/09 12:04 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Greg Grimes
JHAP that is the kind of bass davasta will have if he keeps up the harvest program. You can have them this big as well with a little more bluegil and little less GSF but as we say it is all about goals and I know your is to hold the world record GSF.


Wow a world record GSF, to even speak such words brings tears to my eyes.


JHAP
~~~~~~~~~~

"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
chadwickz71 #145887 01/21/09 10:17 PM
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 Originally Posted By: chadwickz71
What do you think your BG population is like during this time. You said your adding 5-8" are your buying them or transferring them from another pond?

How many bass do you think you average taking out per year?

I pulled out almost 200 out of a 4 acre pond a few years ago and it didn't make a difference. They looked just like yours and hit on every cast. This year im gonna add 1000 3-6" CNBG probably around May. I know its a little late but I'll still catch a few spawns and feel that it is more important to pull out a bunch of fish before I put in the CNBG then just dump them in around March and wonder how many original stockers got ate. Also I plan to have a floating dock in place with a feeder running by that time which would also help the BG along as soon as they are dropped in.

Only thing I guess I have going for me vs. your situation is from where I live I can hit my 4 acre pond with my driver and a decent swing. Plus I have a brother that can catch fish fishing with his eyes closed in the winter time.

good luck, Im right there with you doing the same thing your doing.


Chad,
To the best of my knowledge, there are BG, RES, and either GSF or HBG in the pond. I did not originally stock the pond and have not been able to have an electrofishing survey. The pond is also too deep (and steep) to effectively seine. That being said, there are a fair number of large BG and RES. The yoy are eaten quickly by the hungry bass. Post-spawn, the 13-14" bass will be full of 2-3" BG.

I have not caught any adult HBG or GSF that I'm aware of, but I did trap a yoy sunfish that had a very large mouth and the typical fluorescent "veiny" markings we see with GSF or HBG.

I have been transporting 5-8" (and bigger) BG and CNBG from another pond with an abundance of large sunfish (dad's BG pond about 1.5 hours away). I use an igloo ice chest with an O2 tank and stone diffuser to transport. I then acclimate and release the fish...20-30 at a time. I've probably added 100 fish over 2 years. Not a huge difference in a 4 acre pond, but it helps give me more spawners.

I estimate 15 pounds of bass removed last week. I've probably removed 30-35 pounds per year for the last three years. Not enough in a pond that size, but still enough to get the ball rolling. Water is clear and not as fertile as I'd like, but I'm weary of fertilizing because I cannot be there for an extended time to monitor the results.

If I could hit the pond with a driver and a Tiger Woods swing, I'd be in business. Slow and steady will alow me win the race (I HOPE!)

P.S.- JHAP, I'm no match for Sunil when it comes to brute strength, but I'll try to stop bending the LMB. Please, just don't call PETA and let them know.


"Only after sorrow's hand has bowed your head will life become truly real to you; then you will acquire the noble spirituality which intensifies the reality of life. I go to an all-powerful God. Beyond that I have no knowledge--no fear--only faith."
davatsa #145930 01/22/09 09:44 AM
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 Originally Posted By: davatsa
P.S.- JHAP, I'm no match for Sunil when it comes to brute strength, but I'll try to stop bending the LMB. Please, just don't call PETA and let them know.


Agreed, but you are now on top secret double probation.


JHAP
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"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
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