Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,902
Posts557,128
Members18,452
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,422
ewest 21,475
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,112
Who's Online Now
16 members (jpsdad, rjackson, esshup, Boondoggle, jbird5986, Sunil, Rick O, Angler8689, anthropic, Justin W, Bing, bstone261, DenaTroyer, Theo Gallus, Shorthose, Freg), 959 guests, and 191 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 9 10
#14534 07/06/06 01:59 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 13,939
Likes: 268
Moderator
Lunker
Online Confused
Moderator
Lunker
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 13,939
Likes: 268
We'll make a Larval Trawler out of you yet, DIED.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]
#14535 07/06/06 03:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
E
ewest Offline OP
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
OP Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
ROFLOL \:D \:D :p
















#14536 07/06/06 06:46 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,973
G
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
G
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,973
ewest, thank you so much for your response. It is the best description I have found yet about HBG down the line. I saved it to describe to folks the reasoning behind the sotkcing or not stocking of this species.

From a a field data standpoint I just know that I have been to ponds stocked with GG some years back and they had what appeared to be GSF and they were farily small thus the reason for calling me.

ML will help us with this and time will tell us the results.


Greg Grimes
www.lakework.com
#14537 07/06/06 08:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
E
ewest Offline OP
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
OP Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
Thanks Greg you are kind to say that. I agree that lepomis stunting and over population is a serious problem that you guys get called about often. I think it is worse up north because they seem to have more BG stunting than we do down here. I don't yet have a full understanding of all the whys and how's of that situation. Much to learn.
















#14538 07/09/06 06:56 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 764
N
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
N
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 764
Dave Willis, if you see this, could you comment and also tell us about the HBG in Lake Hendricks?


Norm Kopecky
#14539 07/09/06 07:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,587
D
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,587
Norm -- I don't know of any hybrids there. I think it's primarily a walleye-perch lake?? Could you mean Lake Cochrane, just north of there?


Subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

From Bob Lusk: Dr. Dave Willis passed away January 13, 2014. He continues to be a key part of our Pond Boss family...and always will be.
#14540 07/10/06 08:23 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 764
N
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
N
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 764
Yes Dave, Lake Cochrane is the one. My mistake. As I understand it, this lake has a long-term population of HBG in the presence of predators. A history of this lake might give us some insights into the dynamics of HBG in a larger lake.


Norm Kopecky
#14541 07/10/06 08:41 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,587
D
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,587
Well, Lake Cochrane is rather unusual for a South Dakota water body -- but similar to a lot of the smaller MN and WI natural lakes, I believe. Cochrane is a small (330 acres) natural lake (glacial origin) and has good water quality. In fact, it was one of 5 lakes to maintain fish communities during the dust bowl in the 30s. The unique thing about the lake is that the submergent, rooted vegetation goes out to about the 14 foot contour. As a result, more than half of the lake bottom is covered by plants, which Norm knows is very rare for a SD natural lake. Most of our natural lakes are shallow and windswept.

For decades, this lake has had an abundance of natural hybrids, mostly between bluegills and green sunfish (although there are a few pumpkinseeds in there, and once in a while a hybrid looks more like a pumpkinseed). This high incidence of natural hybridization often occurs in one of two situations, both of which function in Lake Cochrane. Sunfish apparently select mates through visual cues, and natural hybridization is more common in lakes with an overabundance of aquatic vegetation. Apparently, visual cues can be obscured in the dense vegetation. Secondly, natural hybridization is more likely when one species is abundant and the other is not. In the case of Lake Cochrane, there are plenty of bluegills, but the green sunfish abundance is pretty low.


Subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

From Bob Lusk: Dr. Dave Willis passed away January 13, 2014. He continues to be a key part of our Pond Boss family...and always will be.
#14542 07/10/06 09:25 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
E
ewest Offline OP
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
OP Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
Dave great info. Does the lake have much shallow turbidity along with the plants? That might also increase the probability of crossing due to masking of visual cues.

Any indication of alternative male reproduction strategies in GSF (sneakers/cuckholders)? If so that may account for some natural crossing. That is male GSF sneakers/cuckholders moving in on male BG nests just as the female BG deposits her eggs. Could also happen with BG sneakers moving in on GSF nest as the female GSF deposits her eggs.
















#14543 07/10/06 12:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 764
N
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
N
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 764
Dave, are these natural hybrids showing hybrid depression or are the predators eating the less vigorous fish? Also, are the hybrids reproducing or are they dependant on BG and GSF constantly hybridizing? If the BG and GSF are constantly hybridizing, do you see any hybrid vigor in the offspring? Thanks for all of this info.


Norm Kopecky
#14544 07/10/06 01:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,587
D
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,587
Ewest -- water clarity is relatively high within the lake, and within the plant beds. It does get some algae, but it's mostly green algae, not the pea-soup blue-green blooms we get on some of the more productive lakes. We've never taken a look at GSF cuckolds. Probably need to do that!

Norm -- I can't answer such hard questions! \:\) I honestly don't know how we would see/measure hybrid depression. I would expect "hybrid vigor" in the f1 generation, but who knows what percentage of the parentals are actually pure. The last time up there, I grabbed what appeared to be a parental male bluegill to show a student the long gill rakers, and it had short stubby rakers (i.e., green sunfish gill rakers!). As a result, I really can't tell how much reproduction comes from supposed parentals and how much from the hybrid swarm. This lake has had the hybrids for decades.

Interestingly, we've seen an increase in quality of the sunfish in recent years. The largemouth bass density has gradually increased (in fact, their growth has slowed and their average size is down; just like a pond!) over the last decade, and the size of the sunfish has increased. We now occasionally see a parental male bluegill of 8 inches, which never happened in the past.


Subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

From Bob Lusk: Dr. Dave Willis passed away January 13, 2014. He continues to be a key part of our Pond Boss family...and always will be.
#14545 07/12/06 09:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 764
N
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
N
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 764
Thanks Dave! From what you've described, you don't see 10" fish which is what we probably would expect from pure bluegill. Is that correct?


Norm Kopecky
#14546 07/12/06 01:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,587
D
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,587
Norm -- yes, but there's always a but, right? \:\) It's complicated by the decades of too-high abundance on the overall sunfish swarm. We'll see if we ever get to a 10-inch bluegill now that LMB density is so much higher. I think that I need a double-length career (lifespan) in fisheries. Then, I could spend the 2nd lifespan trying to answer the questions that finally got correctly asked by the end of the first career.


Subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

From Bob Lusk: Dr. Dave Willis passed away January 13, 2014. He continues to be a key part of our Pond Boss family...and always will be.
#14547 07/13/06 09:48 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,261
D
Ambassador
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Lunker
D
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,261
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Willis:
.......I think that I need a double-length career (lifespan) in fisheries. Then, I could spend the 2nd lifespan trying to answer the questions that finally got correctly asked by the end of the first career.
Dr. Willis, interestingly, my dad says exactly the same thing, spending over 50 years devoted to geochemical research, now that he's 86, everything is organized in his mind, and he knows he could solve exactly how the earth's crust formed but he'd need one more career to prove it.

its cool that some folks find that kind of passion in their life.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/16/11 05:22 PM. Reason: fix Title for Dr Willis

GSF are people too!

#14548 07/21/06 06:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
E
ewest Offline OP
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
OP Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
Thanks Shorty for providing this HBG pic and post . Read here. http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=003085;p=1#000004

[img]http://heartlandforums.com/forums/album_picm.php?pic_id=99[/img]
















#14549 08/21/06 08:06 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
E
ewest Offline OP
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
OP Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
Here are 2 HBG pics provided by bz.




















#14550 08/21/06 08:47 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,025
Likes: 1
B
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,025
Likes: 1
does anyone else think the top fish has more than 50% BG in it? Seems to have way more BG shape and smaller mouth than a typical HBG.


#14551 08/21/06 09:54 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
E
ewest Offline OP
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
OP Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
BM :

That was one purpose for starting this thread. I have noticed 2 different HBG looks. Here is the first para of the thread. bz's top fish looks like the second type (more BG look).

Different sources (written and oral reports) indicate that there is a differences between the 2 BG x GSF crosses. One is the reported difference in % males with mBG x fGSF cross = 97% male and the mGSF x fBG cross = 69% male. Does anyone know what each looks like and are they different in appearance. I keep seeing 2 types of pics that are different over and over.
















#14552 08/21/06 10:32 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Ewest - IMO the two different pictures by bz are probably due to the time frame in which they were taken, the darker of the two being taken when the HBG are in still in spawning/nesting mode in the spring and early summer. The second lighter picture is very recent and it is likely all spawning and nesting behavior has likley ceased for the year.

Just from my own observations and discussions on PB, in your std. hatchery cross, a male BG X female green sunfish cross the male offspring will exhibit more coloration and body characteristics of a green sunfish than a BG. In the natural HBG that I have seen in our pond between a female BG and a male green sunfish the male offspring have size and shape characterics mostly of a BG and will resemble a pumkinseed somewhat in appearance. To put it more simply, IMO the male offspring of crosses have a general tendency to heavily resemble the female of whatever parent species they are crossed with. Now I could be wrong so I am eager to hear other opinions, but that is my current thinking on this issue.

It will be intersting to see if Bruce gets some RES/BG hybrids. If I am right they should resemble RES much more than a BG due to the sex of the parents, male BG X female RES. I am guessing the gill rakes will look more like a RES than a BG. I would expect the opposite in a male RES X female BG cross.



#14553 08/21/06 10:57 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
E
ewest Offline OP
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
OP Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
Shorty :

Thanks for the info. \:\) I will have to digest it some more wrt the male/female genetics and effects.

WRT your first para on time of year see the link below to 5 BG pics same time, same pond location, during the spawn but all different colors of fish (and some changed with in 10 seconds of being caught) . There is a lot more to this - see the other current thread link 2 below.

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000318;p=5

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=003227;p=1#000004
















#14554 08/21/06 11:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Thanks ewest! Sounds like there are multiple parimeters influencing color and appearence in the sunfish family.

One other thing that could influence color appearence is sexual maturation. I would expect an imature male to be lighter and more duller in appearence than a mature BG, and that a mature male BG would aslo be darker and exhibit more color. It seems reasonable that HBG would also follow these lines in terms of maturation.



#14555 08/21/06 12:15 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 844
B
bz Offline
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 844
Some more info on my pics. I caught 11 fish that day. About 1/3 of them were colored like the second picture. The others were colored just like the first picture which was taken in May so I didn't take a picture of them. My fish are all the standard mBG x fGSF cross and according to the hatchery were fertilized manually in the hatchery so they are all the same cross.


Gotta get back to fishin!
#14556 08/21/06 01:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
E
ewest Offline OP
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
OP Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
Shorty I think you are right . Is the rain the reason for the reduced sechi readings (muddy or plankton bloom)?

bz thanks for that info. I will try to find some info on the observations by you and Shorty and report back.
















#14557 08/21/06 01:56 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
 Quote:
Is the rain the reason for the reduced sechi readings (muddy or plankton bloom)?
e-west, a little bit of both, if I have calculated right our pond has received 4.1 million gallons of water since Aug. 3rd. \:\)
27,000 gallons per 1" of 1 surface acre of water X 9.5 surface acres = 256,500 gallons, X a 16" rise in the water level since Aug 3 = 4,104,000 gallons of new water. The pond is 9.9 surface acres when at full pool. Since the 3rd we have had over 7" of rain, 3.4" of that coming down just last Thursday and Friday. I would like to hear from Nedoc one of these days, they got more rain in his area last week than we did.

The reduced water clarity is cutting the light off the deeper aquatic vegetation causing some die off, which in turn is feeding a mild algea bloom along with nutrients in the run off from the farm fields above. The water looks more green than brown at the moment. Right now the sechi disc readings vary from area to area, last Friday the shallow end was very dingy, yesterday the dingy water was now down by the dam where I took the 36" reading, the shallow end has cleared up significantly in the last two days. I suspect the seschi disk readings will be back up to 60" with the next 10 days if we don't get a strong bloom going. Our pond has always cleared up very quickly if it muds up from a heavy down pour.



#14558 08/21/06 03:55 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
ewest, one more observation, do you remember some of the pictures of the Georgia Giants posted by Deb? Do you remember the kid holding up that giant sunfish? Was that sunfish a male or a female? Did it resemble a BG or GSF more? ;\)



Page 4 of 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 9 10

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
cro, HC1968
Recent Posts
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by jpsdad - 03/29/24 08:24 AM
pond experience needed
by esshup - 03/29/24 08:19 AM
Can anyone ID these minnows?
by Sunil - 03/29/24 07:31 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by RogersTailgate - 03/29/24 05:45 AM
New pond middle TN: establishing food chain?
by Bill Cody - 03/28/24 07:57 PM
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by FireIsHot - 03/28/24 07:33 PM
Working on a .5acre disaster, I mean pond.
by PRCS - 03/28/24 06:39 PM
Fungus infection on fish
by nvcdl - 03/28/24 06:07 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/28/24 04:48 PM
Yellow Perch Spawn 2024
by H20fwler - 03/28/24 04:29 PM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by LANGSTER - 03/28/24 03:49 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5