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#14459 - 03/25/06 12:09 AM HBG pic/question
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
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Here are some HBG pics. and a question.

Different sources (written and oral reports) indicate that there is a differences between the 2 BG x GSF crosses. One is the reported difference in % males with mBG x fGSF cross = 97% male and the mGSF x fBG cross = 69% male. Does anyone know what each looks like and are they different in appearance. I keep seeing 2 types of pics that are different over and over. See below.











I wonder if the top 3 are mGSF x fBG and the bottom 2 are mBG x fGSF ?
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#14460 - 03/25/06 06:47 AM Re: HBG pic/question
Theo Gallus Offline
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Registered: 05/14/04
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Eric:

It's hard for me to feel I'm making valid comparisons; we know how much the same fish can vary from season to season, day to day, even minute to minute (with mood swings, etc.).

Anyway, FWIW #2 & #3 look like what I remember my HBG do (haven't seen one for 20 months). #4 looks to me to be the "most different."

What do you see as the chief differences between #1 and #5? I see the GSF-ish gill striations on #5 but not #1; to me, that makes #5 look more like #2 and #3.
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#14461 - 03/25/06 08:01 AM Re: HBG pic/question
ewest Offline
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Theo :

The difference I see most is body shape and color pattern. 1,2 & 3 are shaped like GSF and 4 & 5 are shaped like BG. 1,2,&3 have lines around mouth and are a dark base color while 4 & 5 have no mouth lines and BG base color. It is hard to see as 1 is a strange angle pic. and 5 got fuzzy when enlarged (it is not that dark on sm pic.). Tales show some different shapes and mouth shape and size. 1,2 & 3 have GSF/bass like mouth shape while 4 & 5 ,while large mouthed, still retain BG shaped mouth. I sure don't know the answer if there is one. I hoped someone would or that collectively the discussion would enlighten us all.
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#14462 - 03/25/06 08:51 AM Re: HBG pic/question
Theo Gallus Offline
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I hadn't noticed mouth configuration, but there do appear to be some definite differences.

Do you know the provenance of the pics, or are they a random collection? What I'm getting at is, are they all F1's or could some be F2's or backcrosses - that would account for a lot of variation.

Analogous hybrid question that might shed light - what extent of differences occur between the sunshine and palmetto crosses of HSB? All I recall seeing definite info on is the production differences of obtaining egg-laden females (IIRC it's usually easier to get suitable female WB than lady Stripers).
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#14463 - 03/25/06 09:17 AM Re: HBG pic/question
ewest Offline
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Theo :

Those are a random sample. No info on location or status as F1, F2, Fx or (F )or backcrosses (at least one study and other papers say they can't backcross while others say they can ). Could that be a difference in the 2 types also.

George did a great post on the HSB type question.
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#14464 - 03/25/06 01:26 PM Re: HBG pic/question
Gambusia Offline
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Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 315
Loc: Western North Carolina
I think the picture by Garold Sneegas (No.3) is an actual green sunfish.

It sure looks just like the ones I catch albeit bigger.


Edited by Bill Cody (02/09/11 04:09 PM)
Edit Reason: added no 3

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#14465 - 03/25/06 05:00 PM Re: HBG pic/question
burgermeister Offline
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Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
2 & 3 have to be GSF;, the mouth is just too big not to be. Is it possible that #4 is one of the rare females, due to the coloring? 1 & 5 are definitely different looking, but as it has been posted previously, they are a hodgepodge of variety.
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#14466 - 03/25/06 06:01 PM Re: HBG pic/question
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19649
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The pics were labeled by the authors as HBG. They should have known. Here is a GSF and it does not look just like those above. No black spots, no light pelvic fin area and different color background (they have verticle bars of BG) on those above labeled HBG in 1,2 & 3. It is isn't it.



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#14467 - 03/25/06 08:11 PM Re: HBG pic/question
Eastland Offline
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 1039
Loc: Dallas TX
I really like these photo's ! Pics 2 & 3 look almost like a pure greenie, must have 90% of the GSF genes. # 1 looks like a CNBG/GSF mix with those wide vertical bars. 4 & 5 look like the regular fish I see labeled as HBG. Just fyi, I do not see many fish like 2 & 3 I think are hybrids...those torpedo beasts are Green Sunfish !

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#14468 - 03/26/06 10:16 PM Re: HBG pic/question
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/06
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Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Eric, every GSF I catch looks exactly like # 3. I catch them of all sizes so I have no reason to believe they have any hybrid in them.
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#14469 - 03/27/06 08:01 PM Re: HBG pic/question
BJ Offline
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Registered: 03/21/06
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Loc: SE Ohio
From what I have seen over the years, as the HBG gets larger in size, they tend to show more yellow markings than orange like the GSF. When HBG (F1) is stocked in a pond it looks most like #3. As it gains a lot of weight and increases in length, I see them look alot more like 1 & 4.
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#14470 - 03/27/06 09:30 PM Re: HBG pic/question
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19649
Loc: Miss.
From the Peterson Field Guide of freshwater fishes.

Green Sunfish
...Adult has large black spot at rear of 2d dorsal and anal fin bases ,yellow or orange edges on dorsal, caudal and anal fins ... white to yellow belly ....

Only the GSF pic (last above) has all those markings and not 1 ,2 and 3 above.
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#14471 - 03/28/06 11:11 AM Re: HBG pic/question
Gambusia Offline
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Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 315
Loc: Western North Carolina
Green sunfish can be highly variable though in their markings.

I stil think 2 and 3 are greens and the rest hybrids

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#14472 - 05/01/06 09:23 AM Re: HBG pic/question
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
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Thanks Gator for the following pic which is added for info. You can read about it at the link below the pic.





http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000457;p=1#000007
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#14473 - 05/01/06 11:06 AM Re: HBG pic/question
Ryan Freeze Offline
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Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 1285
Loc: Southwest Ohio
Here's a HBG I stocked in my pond in March of '04

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#14474 - 05/01/06 01:18 PM Re: HBG pic/question
bz Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 844
Loc: Minnesota
I can't even begin to comment on what a HBG should look like but this post interests me just because I have a pond full of them and am searching for ways to tell F2s, F3s, etc. from my F1s. I can tell you that the only picture I've ever seen on this forum that looks like my F1s is picture 3 above. I saw that and said "that's my fish!" In Gators picture as posted by ewest I see a resemblance in the blue bars under the eyes. Some day I'll have to get some pics of my F1s and what I think might be F2s and see what the smart guys here think. Sorry Ryan but the only thing on your picture that looks to me like a HBG is the bright yellow on fin edges. I'm not doubting that it's a HBG but it's amazing what differences in water, water color, feed, and I suppose mood have on fish color. By the way I don't know exactly what cross my HBG are but I've eaten 120 fish from my pond and have yet to find a female.
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#14475 - 06/12/06 04:15 PM Re: HBG pic/question
ewest Offline
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Here is a HBG with thanks to Matt Clark.

[img]http://images1.snapfish.com/34733756%3B%7Ffp45%3Dot%3E232%3C%3D847%3D556%3DXROQDF%3E2323%3B34%3A57766ot1lsi[/img]

Here is a second HBG pic from Matt's pond. Thanks for sharing.

[img]http://images1.snapfish.com/3473442%3A6%7Ffp346%3Enu%3D323%3B%3E756%3E465%3EWSNRCG%3D32338386%3A8%3B77nu0mrj[/img]
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#14476 - 06/13/06 09:45 AM Re: HBG pic/question
Meadowlark Offline
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Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 3075
Loc: East Texas
Bz,

I just noticed this post, thanks to EWEST's picture.

I have several pictures of the GG as they have been growing since Dec. at the following link:

http://www.meadowlarkponds.com/TGG.htm

I've thus far only seen 1 F2 and have it in a micro pond for observation. I can't tell any difference in appearance between F1 and F2, but possibly the trained eye could.

I'd be interested in what you think of those pictures and how they compare to your HBG. Thanks.

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#14477 - 06/13/06 05:39 PM Re: HBG pic/question
bz Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 844
Loc: Minnesota
I think it's amazing that your GG's have almost doubled in size since December. I wonder if that's just you mild climate or if it's the GG's high growth rate. How does the growth compare to regular BG in your ponds? I will try to get some pictures of my HBG. Based upon my untrained eye my HBG only look like your GG with respect to the bright edges on the fins, the blue bars under the eyes, and the long ear flap. Other than that they are colored very different. There color varies from top to bottom with black on the top changing to some mottling with the same irridescent blue that is under the eyes, with bright orange on the belly. Of course the color differnce could be just the water/feed. The other thing I noticed is that mine basically looked the same in terms of color and body proportions from the time I first looked at one closely at 3 inches long to 10 inches long. Of course during the spawn the mature males do get the bulging forehead but other than that they look the same throughout their life so far. Your young ones look to have a more slender shape and large eye in proportion to body size as compared to the larger ones. I'll email you some pictures.
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#14478 - 06/13/06 05:44 PM Re: HBG pic/question
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Registered: 08/08/02
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Peronally I'm skeptical if there are very many F2s or F3s to speak of, of the offspring. I've seen literature that says survival of green sunfish hybrid offspring is bascially nill and that has been my experience. I had some escape a floating cage and for the most part they all disappeared and I only caught one. Never saw anything that looked like it could be offspring of them.
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#14479 - 06/13/06 06:10 PM Re: HBG pic/question
Meadowlark Offline
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Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 3075
Loc: East Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by bz:
How does the growth compare to regular BG in your ponds?
Bz,

The "baseline" growth rate for BG in Texas is .012 inches per day. The GG's, in the most recent measurement period, had slowed to an overall growth rate of .02 inches per day.

I'll look forward to your pictures. Interesting stuff.

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#14480 - 06/13/06 06:15 PM Re: HBG pic/question
Theo Gallus Offline
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Registered: 05/14/04
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Loc: Central Ohio
ML:

That TGG F2 can't be very big yet, can it? Perhaps it's appearance will be become more distinctive as it matures.

But then there's quite a bit of variation amongst GG's themselves, IMHO.
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#14481 - 06/13/06 08:27 PM Re: HBG pic/question
Debra King Offline
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Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 556
Loc: South Ga.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Theo Gallus:

But then there's quite a bit of variation amongst GG's themselves, IMHO.
IMHO too! It is amazing to see how many differences are in each batch. Although I must admit I have yet to see such a vibrant orange on the GG's. Some orange yes but not as painted looking (and that is meant as a compliment) as the one above.

Pretty fish!
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#14482 - 06/13/06 10:42 PM Re: HBG pic/question
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19649
Loc: Miss.
While I think Matt's 2 HBG above both have BG genetics my guess is that they are very different with the remaining cross genetics. I think he provided they came from 2 sources.

The BG shape is similar but the background pattern is not and the colors are not. The second one looks like a standard issue HBG (BG X GSF) like several shown above. The first HBG pic above has a background pattern like a redbreast hybrid , or some RES. I would bet that it has a much lower % GSF than the second fish. If I recall Matt has posted several lepomis mixes here and each one looks different.

See this thread for our prior discussion.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000143;p=1#000000

[img]http://images.snapfish.com/344%3A975523232%7Ffp45%3Dot%3E232%3C%3D847%3D556%3DXROQDF%3E2323%3B34%3A57766ot1lsi[/img]

Some of his pics from the thread are gone but this one remains.

[img]http://images1.snapfish.com/34733756%3B%7Ffp45%3Dot%3E232%3C%3D847%3D556%3DXROQDF%3E2323%3B34%3A57766ot1lsi[/img]


Look at this link of the different lepomis types especially the redbreast and hybrid and the RES.

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/efish/families/centrarchidae.html
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#14483 - 06/14/06 09:40 AM Re: HBG pic/question
Meadowlark Offline
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Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 3075
Loc: East Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Theo Gallus:
ML:

That TGG F2 can't be very big yet, can it? Perhaps it's appearance will be become more distinctive as it matures.
Theo, no its small. The F2 appearance may change as it grows, but I doubt anyone without a microscope can identify differences between F1 and F2...and maybe not even then. Later on this year, I will get a side-by-side picture of the F1 and F2 for everyone to look at...of course you will be able to see the size difference, but independent of size it will be interesting to see if there are any other discernable differences.

If my pond is going to contain F3,F4, and F5 fish this year(and green sunfish as well), as suggested by some, things are going to have to change very quickly. I don't expect to see any F3, since I have been able to trap only one F2 thus far...but the summer has a long ways to go yet. Fun stuff.

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