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#142627 12/28/08 06:36 PM
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I'm new to PB and have gathered a lot of information so far. It's time for me to start getting some numbers together for a possible spring of 2009 stocking. The location is Union county IN, 1/2 acre pond which will be 11 ft in the deepest hole and an average of 6 to 7 ft throughout the rest. The pond will be maintained by runoff and possibly supplemental filling by well water. The pond will have an aerator system and the fish feeder was just purchased over the holidays. Our goals are for good BG fishing even considering HBG(?), along with LMB and CC. I intended on stocking 10 lbs of FHs along with the recommendations I hope to get from PB viewers. We are unsure on the numbers of how many species to stock or if we should stock any other types of fish. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
The pond has taken on some water in the last few weeks.










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Steve, here are my recommendations for stocking a Midwest quality BG pond, 1/2 acre in size.

Spring 2009: your planned 10 lbs of FHM, plus 200 small (2"-3") fingerling BG and 50 small fingerling RES. If you like good BG fishing/eating, you will also like having the Redears in the pond. Since you will be feeding, the BG should take advantage of the feed in the pond's first year. The Fatheads will most likely eat pellets too, adding to their size & numbers.

Fall 2009 or Spring 2010: 100 small fingerling LMB (4" or so, 2009 YOY LMB from your fish supplier) and a small (25-50) number of CC (up to 9" or so in size).

If you are interested in other fish species, there are several that could be integrated into your pond. Given the presence of premier pond spawners & predators in the BG & LMB, most other species would be kind of a sideline. Let us know if there are any you are specifically interested in, and we can give our advice/opinions.


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Thanks for the info. I've had the pleasure of catching some Georgia Giants in a local pond that were 10 inches in size and pushing 1 lb. Does anyone have experience with these hybrids and can they be harmfull to your pond? Also we love to catch crappie, but are unsure whether to stock any.

Steve

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Steve Georgia Giants and other hybrid bream offspring are inferior genetically than regular bluegill. Also intially the reproduction rate is lower so not as much forage for the bass. It is all about your goals. If wanting better bass growth then I would suggest not adding any HBG. If you want great agressive bream fishing and do not mind draining every couple of years then HBG might not be a bad option.


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I agree with Theo and Greg. Because you will be feeding I would go with 400 BG (no HBG or GG unless you want a specific put and take fishery). You could also consider a few YP and HSB as additional predators both of which also eat pellets.

BTW welcome to the PB Forum.
















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I agree with Greg on the HBG. I have them in my pond and I wish I didn't. One of my neighbors stocked them a few years ago. I can understand the innitial attraction to HBG, Fish farmers talk about them like they are some kind of super aggressive giant BG. In my experience standard BG grow faster, fight just as hard if not harder, and are just as aggressive. I'm sure some of the lack of aggression is due to HBG Degredation over the years, but never the less the Benefits with HBG don't outweigh the encumbrances of HBG for my pond. Hope this was atleast a little helpfull.

I know you also mentioned Crappie. I don't have personal experience with them but I have heard that they will overpopulate a small pond verry quickly. I'm sure others will be able to give you more info, stories, etc... on the crappie.

Welcome to the forum.



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Hi Steve, I'm in the same boat as you - my pond is just now filling over in IL. I have the same questions and will be watching your thread! Your ahead of me on the structure though, I hope to get over there this weekend and get going on it before the whole thing is full.

There's a farm pond over here that I've caught several 2 pound GG's out of. I was all excited about those also, but after reading the site I think I'll pass. Good luck with your pond!

Maybe hybrid crappie would work since they don't overrun the pond.


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Note CAREFULLY that Theo and those that agree with him are suggesting stocking 100 LMB fingerlings (2"-4") in a 1/2 acre pond. This equates to 200 LMB per acre. This is a higher number of bass per acre than often recommended by many gov. agencies and some previous posts on this forum. This higher number of bass for initial stocking (200/ac), I assume is due to the goals mentioned by SteveM which was "" Our goals are for good BG fishing even considering HBG(?), along with LMB and CC. I intended on stocking 10 lbs of FHs...."".

If one wants good (or trophy) BG fishing then the fishery NEEDS to have a continual high number of lower sized predator bass (9"-14") to keep the numbers of ever present BG "thinned down". When BG numbers become crowded their growth USUALLY slows down. The more crowded BG become the more their overall growth slows. Conversely the more crowded and slower growing the bass become the larger the average size of BG that are usually present. It is very difficult to have it both ways - large BG and large bass. This topic has been discussed on this forum previously. Maybe some one can provide a link to those discussions?

In my numerous experiences, to maintain a quality BG fishery with some annual harvest of BG in a smal pond one needs to feed the BG a high proten fish food to keep growth and optimum numbers of larger BG at its best it can be for a small pond. Typically a small pond (1/4-1ac) receives too much fishing pressure and harvest to produce trophy BG fishing in the long term if just relying on natural foods. Feeding high protein pellets produces more and larger panfish per acre.

Now if the GOALS of a small pond fishery is to produce primarily larger bass (15"-19" northern zone) then fewer bass are generally recommended to be stocked per acre and fewer bass are present per acre. Also the stocking combination and type of fish would be somewhat different than Theo recommends earlier in this thread. The GOALS of the pondowner are VERY important for determining what and how many fish to stock.

Someone correct me if I am remiss.

SOME Notes about using HBG.
Also one should keep in mind that if you plan a regular harvest of the larger HBG, then a regular stocking is necessary to maintain the same relative density of adult HBG. Do not rely on HBG to replentish their numbers because it will not happen. This could be one of the underlying reasons for some hatcheries only stocking HBG since they will likely have regular repeat customers. Also keep in mind that the SIZE of additional stock of HBG will need to be larger than fingerling size 1"-3" to provide good survial of the add stock. Bass of 10"-13" love eating 2"-3" sunfish and each hungry bass can eat a couple per day during the spring - summer. If you like the idea of a very willing fish to bite a hook then HBG are IMO somewhat better than regular BG. I think regular adult BG have a greater tendency to become hook shy compared to HBG. I have no proof or data, just some of my exeriences to back up this claim. It would be a very good research project for some college student MS thesis or a person wanting a presentation at a Pond Boss conference.

On the other side of the panfish "coin", regular BG can be a very good and fast growing panfish, even sometimes as good as or exceeding that of the HBG. Give regular BG optimum growing conditions and they are an exceptional panfish. Plus they are providing ample food for the bass AND annually reproducing quality genetic stock to replentish those that have been harvested for table fare. If your pond has BG and is not regularly producing some DESIRED large BG each year then IMO you might want to change your management methods OR Goals OR you are unrealistic as to what can be accomplished in a small pond. Many pond owners do not want or need large BG for their goals of pond management.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/01/09 09:07 PM.

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I agree with Bill's comments and these points were the exact reasons I agreeded with Theo. Feeding makes a big difference to growth in small ponds. With it you can carry more BG and LMB to thin them. You just have to watch the water quality.

Bill said "I think regular adult BG have a greater tendency to become hook shy compared to HBG. I have no proof or data, just some of my exeriences to back up this claim."

Here it is :

Evaluation of Male Bluegill X Female Green Sunfish Hybrids for

Stocking Mississippi Farm Ponds

MARTIN W. BRUNSON

H. RANDALL ROBINETTE



The c/f data presented here confirm the aggressiveness

of this hybrid and its vulnerability to angling.

Catch per effort (in terms of weight) for hybrids

in this study, averaged over all baits, was

1,800 g/h. The c/f observed in this study is nearly

triple the maximum catch per hour reported by

Childers and Bennett (1967) for redear x green

sunfish hybrids over a 5-year period in an Illinois

pond. Information on the frequency of recapture

of the hybrids also confirms the aggressive nature

of these fish. Fifty-four of the 296 hybrids caught

(18%) were recaptured by anglers within 5 d, and

21 of those 54 recaptures (39%) were captured a

third time during the 5-d angling period. No comparative

data exist for bluegill, but these data appear

to support the statements of Childers and

Bennett (1967) that some hybrids are less wary

and less likely to learn how to avoid being caught

than their parents.



Catch per unit effort at Blackjack Pond was 12.2

fish/angler-hour (Table 5), comparing closely with

the overall mean c/f in Blackjack (9.9) during the

previous angling experiment. The total catch of

146 hybrids during the 2-h period was 21% of the

population. Catch per effort at Britt Pond was 22.4

fish/angler-hour, and the total catch of 403 fish

was 66% of the population. These high catch rates,

especially at Britt Pond, once again confirm the

aggressiveness and vulnerability of the BG x GS

hybrid, and point to the importance of strict control

of harvest in hybrid ponds.


Last edited by ewest; 01/01/09 09:34 PM.















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I would not stock both HBG and BG together. Here's why:

The chief advantage to HBG is their limited reproduction, giving the PM better control over bream numbers than with regular BG. Better control, but not absolute - HBG do reproduce and, if no predation for their offspring is provided, are capable of putting too many small bream in a BOW. HBG offspring are not the same 50-50 mix of BG and GSF that their parents were, but rather an assortment of various mixes of BG & GSF genes. To maintain bream numbers and the advantages that HBG offer, it is (as Dr. Perca noted) necessary to restock the HBG pond periodically with additional (advanced size) BGxGSF HBG.

HBG often exceed BG growth rates for the first year or so, but regular BG in a well-managed pond will exceed HBG in growth and maximum size over time. Plus, the BG reproduce with offspring that are genetically capable of matching their parents.

If both BG and HBG are stocked in a pond, the BG will over time (about 2 years IME, in the 1 acre pond where I stocked BG & HBG in equal numbers) pass the HBG in both size and numbers (so much so that seeing a HBG may become a rare experience; I have not caught a HBG in my pond for a long time).

As Bill noted, the 200 LMB/acre I recommend in a Northern pond being managed for quality BG is higher than many LMB stocking rates found here and elsewhere. In a pond managed for big bass, LMB stocking rates should be MUCH lower than this. In Southern ponds, faster LMB growth and maturation usually allows LMB to spawn a year sooner than in the North, so LMB stocking rates can be lower for BG management (the BG have less of a head start on the bass in the reproduction numbers race down South).

200 LMB /acre would be out of line in a pond stocked solely with HBG. However, some form of predation - lower numbers of LMB, larger CC, or alternate predators such as HSB - should be utilized in a HBG-only pond to keep bream numbers under control there as well.


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Midwest Dave mentions that hybrid crappie might be an option when he states "Maybe hybrid crappie would work since they don't overrun the pond.". He has a good point, BUT hybrid crappie are not available for general pond stocking. Anyone know where hybrid crappie are produced?


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 Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Anyone know where hybrid crappie are produced?


Found this while searching around. Seems like they sell to the public and have hybrid crappie. I don't have any idea about their selling restrictions though.

Champaign County Soil and Water Conservation Districts in IL


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Their pictured hybrid crappie looks an awful lot like a hybrid striped bass. (rolleyes)


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It sure does Theo. I wonder if that means:

(a) they actually have HSB and think it's a hybrid crappie

or

(b) the computer geek that put together the website doesn't know the difference between a hybrid striped bass and a hybrid crappie, found a picture of the former and identified it as the later

or

(c) their breeding program has gone horribly awry.


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I personally suspect b), but when someone has one basic error that noticeable, you can't help but wonder what else they have messed up.


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Evaluation of F1 Hybrid Crappies as Sport Fish in Small Impoundments
MICHAEL L. HOOE and D. HOMER BUCK

Illinois Natural History Survey, Sam Parr Biological Station, Rural Route 1, Box 174, Kinmundy, Illinois 62854, USA

Abstract.—Growth and reproductive characteristics of reciprocal F1 and F2 hybrid crappies–white crappies Pomoxis annularis × black crappies P. nigromaculatus–were examined to determine if hybrids are better suited for stocking in small impoundments than their parent species. Relative weight gains of the reciprocal age-0 F1 and F2 hybrid crappies were not significantly different (P = 0.55), but the relationship may have been masked by differences in initial sizes of the test fish. Second-year relative growth rates of both reciprocal F1 hybrids were significantly greater than growth of either of the parent species and, with one exception, than growth of the reciprocal F2 hybrids. The reciprocal F1 hybrid crappies were capable of backcrossing with their parent species, and both reciprocal F1 hybrid male crappies had viabilities equal to those of their parent species. Egg viability for the F1 hybrid black crappie female × white crappie male appeared equal to that of the parent species and greater than that of its reciprocal hybrid. Recruitment in ponds was highest for the pure species, intermediate for the F1 hybrids, and lowest for the F2 hybrids. This study confirmed that F1 hybrid crappies may offer a viable alternative to stocking parent species in small impoundments, the F1 hybrid white crappie female × black crappie male being preferable to its reciprocal hybrid. We recommend that hybrid crappies be used only on an experimental basis pending a more thorough evaluation of the incidence and effects of backcrossing with parent species.
See this thread and the Crappie thread linked there :

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=13896&fpart=1
















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Hi Bill, I'm not certain about availability, but I mentioned hybrid crappies because I see them for sale in my local Soil & Water Conservation news letters during the fall fish sales. Their species description also says not to mix with black crappies that they also list.

I still don't have any fish in my pond (I just recently got water!), but I'm considering them.


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Bill Kens Fish Farm advertises their "High Tech Speck". I'm of course not sold on the claims of superior growth.


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On an interesting note, I just got the new Soil & Water Conservation news letter for the spring fish and tree sales. Hybrid Crappie were not on this list this time, only black crappie. Maybe only in the fall?


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Once again a topic gets hijacked toward another subject. This one seems to be crappies.

I question the wisdom of stocking hybrid crappie, that as Eric noted, have the ability to spawn. Wouldn't spawning hybrid crappie start backcrossing and the future generations start interbreeding and reverting back to the primary genetics of one of the parents, thus eventually producing a population of crappie that readily reproduce and still cause overpopulation problems?

I had this feature happen with HBG (bluegill x green sunfish cross) that I put into a pond 17 yrs ago. The population seems to have reverted to predominantly green sunfish. The only bluegill type fish reproducing now are ones that look a lot like green sunfish. Why wouldn't this concept happen with reproducing hybrid crappie?

I think the study that Eric sites often misleads pondowners. The study and others that used hybrid bluegill appear to have good points for using hybrid crappie or HBG. But the big problem with the studies is they do not follow the genetics of the population more than one to 3 yrs. What happens to those reproducing backcrossing hybrid populations after that? I think in those cases the pond owner should be prepared to renovate the pond and start over. NOt so easy or cheap if the pond is larger than 1-2 acres.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/05/09 12:33 PM.

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I agree with Bill's warning and concern but not with the inference that the studies (which other studies ?) are misleading or favoring pond use of either HBG or hybrid crappie.. I will note that this info has been in the Crappie thread for some time (not new). It is one of several studies on the cutting edge of fisheries science wrt hybrid , diploid and triploid crappie. They are not "lets try this in the pond" material. The study is a report on an experiment and IMO well done and quite clear. We recommend that hybrid crappies be used only on an experimental basis pending a more thorough evaluation of the incidence and effects of backcrossing with parent species. For those not accustomed to reading studies I will be clear with my interpretation. Hybrid crappies are for experimental uses only and should not be put in ponds unless you are prepared for a total experimental failure. I am not sure they are even legal in situations where they might get out into a public water source. My personal thoughts on Crappie in ponds are included in the Crappie thread and others here.


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Sorry Bill, I didn't mean to hijack the thread. Steve.m72 stated: "We are unsure on the numbers of how many species to stock or if we should stock any other types of fish. Any help would be greatly appreciated."

I thought that I would mention hybrid crappies since I'm thinking about them myself. It appears that might not be such a good idea, but the DNR here in IL has been selling them.

Dave


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Dave no apologies needed. That was not a hijack as it was on topic unlike many others. Steve.m72 also brought up the idea when he said "Also we love to catch crappie, but are unsure whether to stock any. "

















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