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#139426 - 11/24/08 02:35 PM Pond next to creek?
MattinGA Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 11/24/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Spalding Co. GA
Hello everyone I really enjoy reading all the great information on yalls site. I recently purchased some property and would like to add a pond. I do have a small creek that runs through the property and if money were not an issue I would dam the creek for the pond, but as things are I am looking at putting in a 0.3-.0.5 acre fishing pond next to the creek. I was wondering how far to stay away from the banks of the creek? I was thinking about 25 ft and leaving 15ft of the trees on the creek bank for erosion control. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Matt



Edited by MattinGA (11/24/08 02:41 PM)

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#139442 - 11/24/08 08:34 PM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: MattinGA]
james holt Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/30/04
Posts: 1714
Loc: gainesville texas
can you pump water from the creek into the pond during periods of drought?

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#139443 - 11/24/08 08:44 PM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: james holt]
oldsconv Offline
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Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 51
Loc: NY
If you dam up the creek to make a pond, it will tend to silt in very fast. Some people put a mini-pond with a dam upstream of the main pond to keep silt from getting into the main pond, but then you need to dredge the mini-pond out every few years. The best method I have seen done many times is to make the pond 15-30 feet away (like you said), then build a small dam on the creek and run a 3 or 4 inch pipe perpendicular to the creek bed upstream of the dam. The water will flow downstream to the pond assuming you position the pond correctly relative to the creek. Then you get a decent water flow to the pond without it being too much (or too cold) and the creek will silt in above the dam, rather than your pond.

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#139449 - 11/24/08 09:03 PM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: oldsconv]
james holt Offline
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Registered: 03/30/04
Posts: 1714
Loc: gainesville texas
I like this idea of having fresh water in the pond keeping it full.

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#139452 - 11/24/08 09:33 PM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: james holt]
MattinGA Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 11/24/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Spalding Co. GA
oldsconv,
That's what I was thinking. I still need to determine the elevations of the creek as it runs through the property. I'm hopping the elevation of the creek at the bottom of the property is high enough to build the pond in the middle with as small of a dam as possible. One thing I'm afraid of is hitting bed rock when I dig the pond. I have noticed several rock formations in the creek that have me worried.


Edited by MattinGA (11/24/08 09:36 PM)

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#139457 - 11/24/08 10:08 PM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: MattinGA]
eddie_walker Offline
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Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 773
Loc: Just North of Tyler, Texas
From the look of the drawing and the four foot intervals on the contour lines, it looks like close to an 8ft drop. That means you will have to build a dam 8 feet high for the water to be level, then another couple feet for freeboard. A dam this tall will have to be about 8 feet wide at the top and with 3:1 slopes, it will have to be almost sixty feet wide at the base.

I'm not sure how long you plan to make this dam, or levy, but you'll be moving a massive amount of dirt. How are you going to do this?

You said that it would be too expensive to dam up the creek. How did you come to that conclusion? I'm of the opinion that the less dirt that you have to move, the less money that you will have to spend.

Eddie
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Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.

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#139462 - 11/24/08 11:24 PM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: eddie_walker]
rmedgar Offline
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Hi Matt, I had a similar situation and decided to let the creek flow into the pond. The creek originated about 500 yards from the pond so no problems with trash fish, and really haven't noticed a silt problem yet. If your creek isn't too large, I'd do what I did. Might be easier than "working around" the creek and worrying about pipes & pumps etc. Just make sure you have a real good exit for the water.
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#139472 - 11/25/08 07:07 AM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: MattinGA]
MattinGA Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 11/24/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Spalding Co. GA
The more I read in this site the more I agree that damming up the creek would be the way to go. I wont have to worry too much about silt as the creek bottom is mostly rock. That would also give me about twice the surface area. Is their a thread that talks about how to dam a creek?




Edited by MattinGA (11/25/08 07:08 AM)

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#139486 - 11/25/08 09:53 AM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: MattinGA]
Rainman Offline
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Matt, I don't think you said if the creek flows year round---does it?
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#139490 - 11/25/08 10:40 AM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: Rainman]
eddie_walker Offline
Lunker

Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 773
Loc: Just North of Tyler, Texas
Matt,

From the topo map, I'd put the spillway on the other side. It looks more shallow to me, and the slower the water moves, the less erosion that it causes.

As for building the dam across the creek, the issue is obviously the water in the creek and what you have to work with. Digging the key way would be best with an excavator, but a backhoe will get it done too. Can you cross the creek with equipment? Can you pump or syphen the water over the dam?

I hate the thought of a pipe through the dam, but if the water is flowing pretty good, that might be your only option. Just be sure to seal it off real good. There are sleeves that you can put around the pipe to stop water from working it's way through the pipe. You can buy them, or build your own. Then the water can flow through the pipe while you are building the dam, and drive from side to side over it too. When the dam is done, you can put in a stand pipe to handle the normal water flow from the creek. If I was doing it, that's probably how I'd approach it.

Good luck,
Eddie
_________________________
Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.

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#139506 - 11/25/08 12:51 PM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: MattinGA]
MattinGA Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 11/24/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Spalding Co. GA
Rainman,

Yes the creek flows year round.

Eddie,

It will take a little work up stream to be able to get equipment across the creek but it is possible. Due to the length of time will take me to complete the pond I would have to run a pipe through the dam. I was looking at 12Ē metal corrugated pipe? One of problems is how to dig the keyway around the pipe?

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#139507 - 11/25/08 01:00 PM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: eddie_walker]
WileyC Offline
Lunker

Registered: 06/03/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Darmstadt, IN
I have a nearly identical situation here except its more of a drainage ditch rather than a flowing stream. The 7' deep ditch is about 20' from the pond edge and has a half dozen older oak and maple trees on it over the 100' it adjoins my pond.

I would anticipate problems from leakage due to root paths and uncompacted soil in that area. I have had to excavate an 8' deep trench, 2-3' wide along most of this length and attempt to pack the dirt back in with the backhoe bucket when filling.

This has stopped the numerous running leaks but I still have a problem with seepage, especially in the top 3'. The soil here is pure clay; no sand or rocks. Didn't find a single rock digging the pond down 12'.

I would think that ideally you would want to remove the trees and dig the embankment down as low as possible and then compact as you built it back up.

Just my 2 cents on what I have experienced here. My pond is about 1 year old so I have no idea if this seepage will slow with time. I'm still debating if the trees are a better source of shade or firewood:-)


Edited by WileyC (11/25/08 01:03 PM)

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#139508 - 11/25/08 01:22 PM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: WileyC]
Chris Steelman Offline

Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 1812
Loc: Red River County,Tx
Matt,

Do you have an idea how big the watershed is? If you don't here is a link to help figure it out.

http://acme.com/planimeter/

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#139509 - 11/25/08 02:14 PM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: Chris Steelman]
MattinGA Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 11/24/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Spalding Co. GA
Chris,
I figured 80 acres this includes a pond my neighbor has about 400' up stream.


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#139531 - 11/25/08 11:59 PM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: MattinGA]
Brettski Offline
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Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 6870
Loc: Illinois
MattinGA,
I think I might have a good guess where Rainman might have been going with his query regarding the amount of water that flows thru the creek, along with the frequency.
The gubmint might take exception to your idea. You need to be very careful.
Do you have any NRCS or other govmt agency oversight on this project? Any input? If not, don't ask...just yet. We might need to kick this around privately, first.
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#139535 - 11/26/08 05:53 AM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: Brettski]
otto Offline
Lunker

Registered: 11/02/04
Posts: 1074
Loc: texas
MattinGA
Planning is the best way to get what you want and you are doing that,

Dig the keyway first then install the pipe.

Don't try and save any money with corrugated metal. It will not last. Get sch 40 pvc or concrete.

Otto

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#139562 - 11/26/08 09:30 AM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: otto]
eddie_walker Offline
Lunker

Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 773
Loc: Just North of Tyler, Texas
Seeing the picture with your neighbors pond on it tells us allot. First, it's doable and the red tape should be minimal. They let him do it, so you should be allowed to do it too. That doesn't always work, but it's a good advantage in your favor. That is if you need permision in your area. A good friend of mine had allot of battles with the government on his land. One thing that he figured out, and tought me, was that everything they cought him doing already existed. He brought in a dozer, cleared about three acres of land and dug a pond without any permits. When they came after him, he said that the pond had alwasy been there, he was just cleaning it up and doing some repairs. It stoped them cold!!!!

You didn't mention what equipment you have, or what equipment will be used?????

For the pipe, I would want it longer then 20 feet. You can get 12 inch plastic culverts in 24 foot lengths, but I don't know about the other sizes or how big you want to go. It really depends on the water flow and what sized pipe can handle daily and normal rain flow. To be safe, figure out what you need and go up a size. The length of the pipe will depend on how tall you build the dam. Your pictures show about 8 feet of elevation change, but the bottom of the creek is probably lower then that. I'd want the dam to be about four feet above the waterline with more being even better. The more the dam weighs, the stronger it will be.

You will also want to drive over the dam, so it needs to be wide enough for that too. With a 3:1 slope and ten feet wide at the top, your dam will be 70 feet wide at the bottom, give or take a few feet. That's 4 culvert pipes to get through there and have a good slope on both sides.

To dig the key way, and the better you do this, the stronger your dam will be. With rock, it's questionable how dee you will get, but anything is better then nothing. To do this, you might have to dam up the creek temporarily upstream and pump the water around where you are digging.

It sounds like allot of work, but I think that once you get everything cleared out and a plan of action decided on, it will be just a matter of following the steps until you are done. Buy the parts that you will need and have them on hand. Even if you cannot get to it this year, having all the pipe on hand will just make it that much easier to get started when you are ready.

Good luck,
Eddie
_________________________
Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.

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#139570 - 11/26/08 12:29 PM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: eddie_walker]
james holt Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/30/04
Posts: 1714
Loc: gainesville texas
It looks like you could possibly have a large amount of water come through your pond during a heavy rain. you should probably plan a worst case scenario. the creek that feeds my pond is dry eight months out of the year but in the spring it can become a river. My pond has been completed for four years now and we have had two fifty year floods since then. I have a twenty inch drain pipe going through the dam as an overflow and two emergency spillways.Here is a picture of the road near the spillway after water had come over the spillway and removed the gravel from the road and put it below the dam. After this happened I had one of the emergency spillways widened about twenty feet because the water came within a couple of feet from going over the dam.

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#139586 - 11/26/08 02:44 PM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: james holt]
MattinGA Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 11/24/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Spalding Co. GA
Wow thanks for all the great info and fast replies, this site rocks.
I will try and reply to everyone but first I just want to let you know I am in the very beginning stages of researching the project and I will be lucky to get it started in the next 18 months. Since I just bought the property I want to monitor the creek throughout the year and see how much flow it has.

Brettski,
No Government yet, I want to talk to people in my area first and see what they did.

Otto
10-4 on the PVC, I will have have to wait and see what my flow looks like throughout the year.

Eddie
Iím not sure yet on the equipment, I was hoping to get a backhoe for a couple of days and a medium size dozer for the rest. I was hopping to build a 8-10 foot dam, the creek is about 6-8 feet wide and 2 to 4 feet deep. What is the best way to temporarily dam the creek?

James,

How big is your pond? Do you have a pic of the dam?

Once Iím able to meet my neighbor with the pond up stream I should be able to get a lot of my question about drain size and flow rates answered. I will try and take some pictures of the creek and future pond site this weekend and post them.

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#139591 - 11/26/08 03:40 PM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: MattinGA]
jeffreythree Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/29/08
Posts: 376
Loc: Denton & Red River countys, TX
I have a 3 acre pond built in 1895(yes, it is that old) that runs next to a seasonal creek and has 2 smaller ones running into it. It was constructed that way because the water shed is around 800 acres of pasture and forest and it runs through clay soils so the silting and amount of water would be an issue. The dam is about 200 yards long and there is some funky pipe and dirt work involved to route water in but keep the sediment out. If you can put your dam across the creek without worrying about water volumes and silt to much, then I think you would be better off in the long run.
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#139605 - 11/26/08 09:09 PM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: jeffreythree]
james holt Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/30/04
Posts: 1714
Loc: gainesville texas



the metal square in the picture is the primary water exit except during a flood. It has a twenty inch pipe under it. You can see the white bridge in the top right of the photo and then a close up after water came over the top of it during a big rain.I tried to find a picture of the dam and the last photo was the best I could find. The dam is 900ft across.


Edited by Theo Gallus (12/09/08 09:21 AM)
Edit Reason: stacking photos vertically

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#140640 - 12/07/08 11:29 AM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: james holt]
Omaha Offline
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Registered: 12/06/08
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That first topo picture looks almost exactly what I'm planning on building. I'm looking at about an acre pond next to a very healthy year round creek. How do I get a topo picture of this area? I don't believe that I can use the creek to feed the pond since the land the pond will be on is significantly higher than the creek. Because of this, I don't know exactly how it will be filled. If I pump from the creek or simply dig the hole and wait for it to fill. There is the possibility that we'll end up hitting an underground spring when we dig. That would be incredible.

Sorry if I hijacked this thread. If I need to start my own let me know.
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#140849 - 12/09/08 09:09 AM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: Omaha]
eddie_walker Offline
Lunker

Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 773
Loc: Just North of Tyler, Texas
I built my pond next to a creek because I my land only goes to the middle of the creek. I didn't have any choice in doing it this way. One of my concerns was in hitting a wet spot, or spring that would drain the pond down to the creek level. I got lucky and found good clay all the way down, so it never became an issue, but if you dig down and find a "spring" you might also have found an underground path to that creek!!!

To fill my pond, I bought a 3inch semi trash pump and ran it 24/7 for about a month. I raised the water level about six feet I'd guess before the winter rains arrived and I quite. My pond is just over 4 acres, so a smaller pond would be allot easier to fill with a pump.

Since then, I've been working on the rest of my land to channel drainage off of my land and my neighbors land so that it goes to the pond. Putting roads in that have drainage ditches along them work great for catching rain water. Then the water follows the road to a culvert, where it goes to the pond. When I'm done, I'll be catching close to 70 percent of the water that lands on my property, and allot of what drains off of my neighbors land.

I'm currently getting about twice what it rains. A one inch rain will give me two inches of water. I want that to be more like six inches of water, though I sort of realize in the back of my brain that four inches is more realistic. We'll see....

Also remember that some rains don't add any water to your pond, while others add allot. Conditions of the soil, how fast it comes down and what it travels through all make a huge difference as to what you end up with in your pond. Trees catch and hold a massive amount of water. Pasture sheds water.

Good luck,
Eddie
_________________________
Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.

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#140875 - 12/09/08 01:03 PM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: eddie_walker]
Omaha Offline
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Registered: 12/06/08
Posts: 4507
Loc: Nebraska
Thanks Eddie. So if we hit a spring that would be a bad thing?

Here's the land and pond area I'm looking at.




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#140923 - 12/09/08 07:10 PM Re: Pond next to creek? [Re: Omaha]
Weissguy Offline
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Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 644
Loc: North of KC, MO
A ram pump might be your solution for filling the pond Omaha.
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