Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site 2/3 Acre Pond

Ok, I'm building a pond starting this winter (clearing and digging) on a farm near Springfield. I'll refer to the experts to see what I'm doing right and doing wrong. Thanks for any help with this.

EDIT - Had an initial outline that I was going to go off of, but like most things, once I got started, plans changed, rendering the outline irrelevant...

I am looking to spend very little money on this (who isn't?). A couple questions that I have initially are:

1. Very large healthy trees are in a few spots where the pond will be dug. Can I leave these there? Will they survive in a couple feet of water?

2. The ground is relatively level. Is it necessary to create a dirt/clay barrier between the crop fields and the pond area?

3. I don't believe we'll be able to create an inlet pipe from the creek to the pond to fill as the elevation of the pond will be significantly higher than that of the creek. Keeping the options of pumping or naturally filling in mind, would a spring be beneficial if we were to hit it when digging? I've heard conflicting reports. On one hand, I understand spring water is a very healthy source of water. However, with the creek level being so far less than where the pond will be, would the spring only allow the water level to rise to a certain point, much lower than what I would want?

4. What plants should I consider? I was reading through and saw some great reviews for vetiver grass, but this can't freeze (obviously something that happens a few months every year here). Are there alternatives to this? My cousin is a forestry major and suggested a type of wheat. What types should I look for? Also, of the 9 aquatic plants I detailed in the above outline, which are good to consider and are there any others that I should consider?

5. I've read for a small pond, you can easily create too much structure. How much is too much? I love the ideas I've found throughout this site and think this part of the planning will be one of the most fun but I don't want to overdo it.

6. I was unable to find plans for constructing a floating dock on a budget. Does anyone have anything like this or a link to this?

7. Is there a particular type of sand that I should consider for the small fishing area and what size should I make it, keeping in mind the entire area of the pond is approximately one acre?



This other aerial view is a little further zoomed out and the red circles were other possibilities but the one we're going with the one furthest south.



A lot of questions, I know, but this is only the beginning I'm afraid. I've been doing a ton of research to prepare myself and would love any additional, direct feedback if possible. Oh, and I will certainly be subscribing to the magazine soon.

For starters, I'm betting 8 feet is rather shallow for a Nebraska pond, given 1) lower rainfall and 2) cold Winters. 10 feet is about the minimum suggested for Ohio, with higher rainfall.

From a completely ignorant standpoint, I wonder if any normal pondbuilding operations (the dirt work, mostly) are more difficult to do in Winter becuase of frozen ground. Compacting a core, for instance.

8 foot would be the average and I think that is what is suggested in the NE Pond Management Handbook. Also, the guy I'm having dig it normally digs pools and I'm afraid if I ask him to handle the whole job I'll end up with a just a big smooth bowl. So I'm asking him to just dig it to 8 feet and then I'll go in with the smaller machinery and finish the job.

With the machinery we have it should be ok to dig in the winter. I'm being told it shouldn't be a problem to get through the top frozen layer and proceed.

Hiya Omaha!
Answers in blue.

1. Very large healthy trees are in a few spots where the pond will be dug. Can I leave these there? Will they survive in a couple feet of water?

- The trees will die, but a few of them left in a small bunch makes for some great fish holding structure. They will also be great habitat for birds like purple martins, woodpeckers, owls and wood ducks.

2. The ground is relatively level. Is it necessary to create a dirt/clay barrier between the crop fields and the pond area?

- I'll let the dirt experts answer that one, but no that you mention you will have crop land surrounding the pond, I do want to throw in a suggestion to establish a large grass buffer strip around the entire pond to help cut down on silting and fertilizer and herbicide leaching.

3. I don't believe we'll be able to create an inlet pipe from the creek to the pond to fill as the elevation of the pond will be significantly higher than that of the creek. Keeping the options of pumping or naturally filling in mind, would a spring be beneficial if we were to hit it when digging? I've heard conflicting reports. On one hand, I understand spring water is a very healthy source of water. However, with the creek level being so far less than where the pond will be, would the spring only allow the water level to rise to a certain point, much lower than what I would want?

- Springs are often a major issue. They can act as a faucet and as a drain.

4. What plants should I consider? I was reading through and saw some great reviews for vetiver grass, but this can't freeze (obviously something that happens a few months every year here). Are there alternatives to this? My cousin is a forestry major and suggested a type of wheat. What types should I look for? Also, of the 9 aquatic plants I detailed in the above outline, which are good to consider and are there any others that I should consider?

- Water willow is excellent for shoreline protection and makes excellent hiding areas for fry. Chara, I probably wouldn't worry about adding chara. It'll most likely show up quite quickly on its own. Your two Iris selections are excellent. They are a great marginal. Pickerelweed is another great choice. Ducks absolutely love the stuff though, so keep that in mind. Note: I currently have all of the ones I mentioned in my pond. I am planning to add more water willow and Iris next spring. I may have some extra plants I'd be willing to donate to your project if you are interested. I'm north of Kansas City.

5. I've read for a small pond, you can easily create too much structure. How much is too much? I love the ideas I've found throughout this site and think this part of the planning will be one of the most fun but I don't want to overdo it.

- If I were you I would leave a nice bunch of mature trees in a spot of the pond. That will leave you with some nice initial structure.

6. I was unable to find plans for constructing a floating dock on a budget. Does anyone have anything like this or a link to this?

- There are some plans for using 50 gallon plastic barrels for floats. As long as the floats are positioned correctly, you'll end up with a pretty stable dock. I'll dig up some links later(they are somewhere in my 10k+ list of favorites), and I'll replace this text with the links. EDIT: Here's a link I found: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070917142345AALAyNt


7. Is there a particular type of sand that I should consider for the small fishing area and what size should I make it, keeping in mind the entire area of the pond is approximately one acre?

- Any particular reason you want sand for a fishing area? Maybe you meant swimming area. At any rate, I would be more apt to put pea rock down, but that's just me.

Omaha, also a topographic map of this area would be great for deciding where to build.

There are plenty of trees in the area, it's pretty heavily wooded. I was more concerned with the size of a couple of these trees. They're just huge. Probably 20 feet around and I was concerned if we just dug around the roots and filled the pond that they'd die and years down the road become a possible hazard for falling branches.



There probably isn't enough room to establish a "large" grass buffer strip so that's why I was asking if a smallish dirt/clay barrier would suffice.



That's what concerns me. Should we hit a spring, what should I look for to determine if it's detrimental or not? And if it is more of a drain than a faucet, can it be "plugged" in any way?



I might have to take you up on that Weiss, thank you. I'll have to keep you in mind come springtime.



So you mean dig around some trees in the pond or just throw some cut ones back in? With the guy I have doing the digging, I don't know how much finesse he's going to use so I don't know how well he'll leave behind some trees for me. I was probably going to keep a few of the uprooted trees and toss them back in for some natural cover.



Any plans would be awesome. I happen to work for a company that can supply me with plenty of plastic drums.



Yeah, I meant swimming area. Got fishing on the brain. Pea Rock. I'll mark that down.

How do I get one of these made up? I've been interested in doing this, but I couldn't figure out how.

Try some of these (in no particular order):
http://terraserver-usa.com/
http://www.topozone.com/ or http://www.topozone.com/states/Nebraska.asp
http://topomaps.usgs.gov/

This is going to depend mainly on your terrain... If you have to dig most of your pond or if you can simply dam it and flood. I have over an acre of flooded "forest" in my pond for example.



I'm willing to bet Otto will be along pretty soon to throw in some advice on this. He's the expert on this stuff. I will say that you'll want to take measure to prevent silting from the cropland (to the extent it can be accomplished).



Again, a great question for Otto.



I don't believe you could dig around the trees and expect them to remain standing for too long. Your idea of using some of the uprooted trees for structure is a good one. However, if you end up being able to flood some of the tree area, without digging, to a depth of 6-10 feet at expected full pool, some of those trees, in my opnion, would be wisely left in the pond.



According to my research, one 55 gallon drum displaces roughly 450 pounds of water. Here is the one link I could find. I'll post more if I can dig them up. I've been thinking about building one of these myself. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070917142345AALAyNt



Pea rock will give you a similar look, and it's friendly on your feet. I think you'll have less issue with it washing away versus sand. I plan to add a small "beach" area to my pond next year, and pea rock is the plan. I also intend to dig a small ledge, put down some heavy duty landscape fabric (or other very durable material... maybe EPDM) and then fill with pea rock. My hope is that this will help to keep the pea rock where I want it and reduce weed issues.

This is the best I could find. Nothing could get close enough.

Omaha, I would consider 500 BG, but what size (1-3 or 3-5"), and if you're going to stock channel cat AND bass in the same year, I would put 10-12 lbs of FHM with the BG in May to give you a good forage base. You'll need it for the CC and LMB if you stock them the same year. They will gobble up your BG spawn in no time. I would consider stocking the BG & FHM in May, and save the LMB till next spring/early summer, and then the CC in the fall. You should get 2-3 FHM spawns by then.

Thing I haven't read (or just missed it) is what do you want your pond to be? A great BG pond, a LMB pond, what? IMO you need to decide on one or the other as your predominate strategy, and stock accordingly.

I have a 1A pond in Mo., and stocked it with 250 3-5" BG, 100 1-3" RES, and 15 lbs of FHM this fall. I'll stock about 20 5-7" LMB NEXT late summer/fall. Additionally, we caught and put in about 30 adult 7-9" BG/RES this past summer hoping it would jump start the breeding. Three weeks later we had fry swimming around some straw bales and root wads. The jump start on breeding must have worked or the adult BG still had eggs. My pond is geared to be a BG pond, with LMB as a bonus occasionally. No CC planned to date. That may change later. Just my .02. Good luck with your project. It will become your passion. Trust me!!!!

My NE Pond Management Handbook discourages stocking FHM.





Interested in making it primarily a LMB pond.



Oh, I don't have to trust you, I realize this already and I haven't even broken any ground yet.

I've never actually used this expression before, but that is horse-and-buggy thinking. Just plain wrong.

Agreed Theo. This was written, I assume, by a State Biologist. However, I have seldom found a consensus from any of them.

I have no idea why they would be wrong for bass but OK for catfish ponds.

So in your guys' experience and research, FHM are just fine in a pond that aims to make LMB, CC, and BG its primary fish, in that order? I take it the FHM help with the growth of the smaller bass?

They are your "jump start" for a new pond. They are slow swimming, small, hardy, prolific fish that inhabit shallow water. Stock them with your initial BG forage stocking. Within the first year they should disappear and the BG take over as the primary groceries for your predators. That is OK. They will have served their purpose.

"Just Fine" might be a little mild. I believe "don't start without them".

They help with the kick off of all of the fish. I've seen 8 to 10 inch catfish chasing schools of FHM across a pond. And, the baby BG eat them.

I would wait a year before stocking the LMB. Make sure you have a solid forage base. Everything is dependent on a good source of renewable protein and proper water quality.

Sounds good. I'm sure the hatchery we're going through will likely suggest this as well if this is common practice.

Do I still stock 400-500 BG if I'm also stocking FHM and how much FHM do I stock?

Is there a computer program out there where I can draw up plans for the pond, like dimensions, depth, structure, etc.? Has anyone used anything like this or what have you used, if anything?

Just to be aware, a lot of the hatcheries out there will try to sell you as much fish as they can, but that usually contradicts what you see here on Pond Boss.

As an example, you will hear here that you should get your forage base established before adding predators, and that wait time can be 6 months to (1) year. This is opposed to what you hear at some hatcheries who say stock everything at the same time.

Oh, and watch out for that guy, Bruce Condello. He's from Nebraska.

Omaha:

400 fingerling BG, 100 fingerling RES, 10 lbs of FHM.

Wait a year and add fingerling LMB (100 for more all-around pond, 75 if you really want to maximize LMB growth) and 50 small CC.

You could handle more CC, but they are the cheapest fish to restock in the larger sizes needed for an established pond. To prevent the CC from getting ahead of you and competing too much with the bass, I recommend going light on their initial stocking.

Yeah, I've read a few of the horror stories about the hatcheries suggesting things that don't work. I've called and introduced myself to the guy I think we're going to go with and got a good "vibe".

Yeah, I've been hearing about this Bruce guy, but I'm thinking he's an urban legend or something because I haven't seen him yet.

Thanks again Theo. Wait, what's RES?

Red Eared Sunfish

Becareful of their introduction however and I highly suggest that you read this thread before considering them. Red Eared Sunfish Thread

Good stuff.

What are the benefits of stocking RES instead of all BG...besides helping keep the deer population down?

Benefits of RES:

1) Redears eat snails, which are necessary hosts for several fish parasites (think grubs & spots). Stock RES = fewer snails = fewer parasites.

2) Redears get bigger than BG - they are the biggest of all the Lepomids.

3) They provide an additional "insurance" forage source for bass.

Cody's Additions
4. RES are not as prolific as BG. Thus don't expect an awful lot of young redears to provide lots of bass food.

5. RES are definately not as easy to catch as BG. RES are typically not surface feeders thus topwater action is nill compared to BG. RES typically are easier to catch using live bait compared to artificials. Whereas BG will readily bite live bait and artificials equally well. Providing the artificials are presented with some level of skill.

6. RES do not readily accept fish pellets, thus overall, one cannot raise as many RES as BG in a pond.

7. RES do provide a good "bonus" in a mixed fishery.

My average depth I was planning was 8 feet, with the deepest basin being probably 12 feet. Would this be deep enough to support RES?

My guess would be yes. If you ever aerate, don't supercool in the Winter (depth is irrelevant to that).

Ok, some before pictures. They're not much to look at but you can see just how much brush and trees there is to get rid of before we dig. Good news is we could possibly be breaking ground as early as this weekend, though next weekend looks like the better possibility.

Its kind of hard to tell in these pictures, but it looks like you have some osage orange in there. That will make some great, long lasting brush piles in your pond. If you have any straight ones make some dock poles out of it. It will last longer than about anything else.

Which ones are the osage orange?

I wouldn't be able to say for sure, but agree some of the trees certainly look twisted enough to be Osage Orange/Hedgeapple/Bois D'Arc. They would be the trees (if any) producing the wrinkled, light green fruit sized anywhere from tennis balls to grapefruits.

There isn't any fruit on any of the trees right now since it's so cold. Can you tell by the bark? In the fourth picture down, that tree closest to the photographer, is that an osage orange? If so, those trees are all over the place there. A lot of trees will be just inside the water line and I was going to either leave them slightly submerged in the water or cut them off, but keep the stumps in place.

I forgot to mention that Osage Orange have beau coup thorns on the branches low enough for animals to browse. And, up here at least, some of the hedgeapples stay on some of the trees long into the Winter. I used to think the thorns were the only danger until I was hit on the head by a frozen grapefruit-sized hedgeapple once.

Then I don't think they're osage orange trees because I haven't seen any of fruit on any of the trees in the area.

The ones on my property don't always seem to have hedge apples on them. Some do, some don't...maybe male/female? They all do have a few things in common. The branches are all tough as nails. Even the dead ones. They have thorns that burn like an SOB when you get poked, and if you peal some bark back, the underbark is typically yellow/orange as well as the roots.

The tree in the middle of the first pic has some "hedgeish" qualities when I look at it. As well as the tangled ones in pic # 6.

You're darn tootin'.

We cut about 65 Hedge trees for fence posts in '86 & '87, right after we bought our place. The last time any of them had been cut (with an axe, yet!), based on ring count, was 95 years prior.

I am still pulling old old fence posts out of the ground in the process of removing fence we have since replaced. The oldest, still solid and making pretty decent firewood, were cut with an axe. Well over 100 years ago, if I am figuring right.

Lusk says Bois D'Arc is the wood that "lasts for 75 years, then turns into a rock."

All true! I have some old telephone poles I got from IL Power for doc posts, but I'm going to scour my ground for some straight hedge and put in poles that are going to outlast me! My buddies dad turned a bowl out of hedge on his lathe. It was bright yellow when he did it, now its dark orange and has irridecent hughes to it when you look at it in the light.

I'm planning on building 2 floating docks (may decide to make them permanent in time, but we'll see) using plastic drums. One of the docks will simply be 3' x 8' while the other will jut out 8' to an 8' x 8' square. At least that's the plan. How many plastic drums (55 gallons) would I need to support each dock? Two on the larger and one on the smaller?

I used to make custom knives. On a couple of them, I used "bodark" for the handles. A grinder with a carborundum stone won't impress it. I had to use a rasp. Problem is that they sometimes crack or split 10 to 20 years later. The grain is so tight that you have to soak them in oils for weeks to get them to take any of it. It is beautiful wood.

That's pretty good news if they are hedge then, because I'm keeping a lot of them that are just right on the shoreline. So even when the water does eventually kill them they'll be there forever. And I plan on using a lot of what we pull as natural structure so their durability is reassuring.

Got my first magazine yesterday.

How about an update? :-D We're ready to dig. Officially this time. :-° We've almost completely cleared all trees and brush in the dig site and we're ready for a bulldozer to come in and rip out the stumps and start the dig. Here's some progress pictures:









One question I was curious about was what aquatic and non aquatic plants should I be looking to plant when we get the dig completed and it begins filling?

The pictures look great, When do you plan on moving the dirt?

As soon as I can get a hold of the guy with the 'dozer.

Hasn't answered any of my phone calls the past couple days.

Keep us posted.

what about gizzered minnows??

I am not aware of such a species... What are you asking about them?

Went to see a friend yesterday who built his own acre pond, just finished another (yet to fill), and is working on a third. Pretty incredible 175 acres. In his acre pond near his house he's got walleye and yellow perch. Bass and bluegill (hybrids too) as well, but a lot of frogs so I'm not sure how prevalent they are. Anyway, a beautifully designed pond, all 3 of them, but different than what I'm aiming for. His are 20+ feet deep.

Anyway, he had dirt problems with the first pond, since he had a ton of sand and limestone that he had to contend with. I don't believe I'll have to deal with that, but he did bring up some possible concerns. The elevation of the creek is substantially lower than the pond. I thought this was a good thing...don't want that creek spilling over into the pond, but he said that the pond water level will only reach the level of the creek. Or the level of the clay banks anyway. The banks are very high and I'll have to study them a little further and see just how high the clay goes up the bank and meets the regular dirt. Will this really determine the pond's water level? If so, I assume, when digging, we can spread clay that we dig into on the higher spots that might have the darker, possibly porous, soil.

Just for the heck of it, we tried fishing the creek. Caught four 3-6" carp. Yay. Tossed in a crayfish trap yesterday evening so we'll see if there's anything in there today. Not expecting anything, but I wasn't expecting to catch any fish either.

My 'dozer guy is very tentative when it comes to getting his equipment out in rain so I have yet to get him out there. I keep calling and bugging him though (nicely ) so hopefully the next stage is shortcoming.

Do y'all mean Gizzard Shad?

Correction. Not carp, but Creek Chub. And there's lots of them. Went out this morning to retrieve the crayfish trap and got about 30 or so of these little fish.

Creek chubs are gluttonous and are pretty easy to catch in a minnow/crayfish trap. They make great bait, particularly for pike.

Creek chubs are also excellent bait for catching LMB.

That's what I've been reading, great bait fish. So I took these 30 or so home with me and put them in my little garden pond. Interestingly, 2 were out of the pond when I got back from Easter dinner, dead of course. Anyway, there was an article in a Pondboss mag a couple months ago regarding a worm farm that I'm going to get my boy working on. So he can feed the gluttons and keep them around for some LMB and walleye bait at a nearby lake. As long as they stay in the damn water.

All good dozer guys consider a day that it is raining like a legal holiday.

That's probably true, but even the potential for rain?

Ok, so put all those creek chub in my garden pond here at home so I'd have some live bait to take to the lake Wednesday. I checked after our Easter dinner and a few were dead out of the water. I come home from work today and I think all of them have jumped out. Really strange.

Must not have liked the water... I have kept creek chubs in my parent's old backyard pond without issue.

Still waiting for my dozer guy to get going. Been raining pretty good the past week so I don't blame him. Crossing my fingers for this coming weekend...again.

In the meantime, with the help of my son and the neighbor kids, we built these pvc trees.

If it is raining the dozer guy is on holiday.

Ok, my Geometry's a bit rusty so help me out with these dimensions please. I taped the outline of my prospective pond and would like to know the acreage (.8, 1.0, 1.2, etc.). And please don't laugh at my extremely rough sketch.

Ok, I think I figured it out and let me know if I'm wrong or not. It's basically almost exactly 1/2 acre. I guess I need to rename the thread.

I would estimate about 1/2 acre as well.

Omaha, I see photos of so many ponds on here that are said to be about an acre, and nearly all look smaller than mine. I asked the builders of my pond how big they thought it was, I baited them and said, about 3/4 acre? They said no, much bigger, more than an acre. Walking around it with gps, it came to 35,000 sq ft., 2/3 acre of water when full.(not walking in the edge of water) Folks can get into big trouble by over estimating the size and average depth of their ponds.
Therefore, bigger is not always better.

Ok, not much to look at, but for those who've been in my situation, you can empathize with my enthusiasm I'm sure. We officially began moving dirt this week, ripping stumps out right now. Unfortunately, I'm not finding the soil I was hoping for, so if we don't find clay soon, we'll have to improvise. Luckily, I do have a source for some good clay "sealant".

Omaha
Thanks for the pictures.
It looks like you are having fun.
Keep us posted as much as possible espically with pictures.

Some slightly better pictures of the recent progress from today. Week-by-week updates here. You guys are in this with me.

Just lots and lots of stumps and roots, tearing up large amounts of dirt.



Stump removal. Very large trees and our 'dozer guy took the afternoon off so I attempted to move them with the bobcat.



I think this one weighed about as much as the bobcat.



How not to do it. Seriously, though, 30 seconds after this picture was taken, this stump was in the truck.

I will GLADLY trade you some excellent Red Clay for some of that topsoil to cover my rock garden called the Missouri Ozarks!

We have a source, but if you want some dirt, have the means to get it out of here, you're more than welcome to it. We certainly have plenty and digging out there today, there was some really good black stuff. We've only dug 5 feet, currently, and have yet to hit clay...we'll see...

Who took the picture when you where on your nose?

My dad. Instead of saving the truck, bobcat, or his son, he took the time to step back and snap a photo.

Looks like you could sell tickets for that ride. lol Seriously though, unless you have other plans for structure, I would have set that bad boy aside and reinserted for structure when the pond was finished. My RES would LOVE that big honker.

We just dumped them into a ditch nearby, so if I decide to go back and pull a couple out for structure, I can do that.

Dirt work is absolutely addicting. If I didn't have a job, I don't think I'd take a break.

I know how you feel

My nearly daily updates on the progress...

Don't forget the aerator and yor minnows

Omaha, I see that you already have a fishing partner. That's one of the best things about the process.

I was told I wouldn't have to aerate for another 3 or so years after the pond is finished, since it's a new pond and will have plenty of oxygenated water. We plan on, again, down the road, putting in one of those attractive windmills to aerate.



He's more looking forward to the swimming.

Haven't been able to get out to the pond the last couple days, but we find pond related things to do...

Until you are able to relocate them to your pond Omaha, I recommend that you place these along your chain link fence between you and your neighbor. I've have found that it can be very beneficial if you keep your neighbors worried about your sanity, they tend to bother you less that way.

Haha, I had one stop by when we were making these and gave me a funny look. "What are you doing?" I have 2 pvc trees against the house too.