Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Fertilization Can I Test for Salinity/Road Salt - Myself?

Is there a simple way that I can test for levels of Road Salt coming in through the storm drains? Our Lake Treat. Co. can do it, but not now. We are having a lot of snowy days and the use of the salt on the major drains comes into my lake more than the other five, so I could compare my lake with the one next door that has zero storm drains, we get their run-off, and they aren't exposed to the salt coming in.
Through my research, I have seen a connection with salt and diminished beneficial natural nitrogen reducing bacteria.

Lynda, I can't imagine that enough salt runs off into the 10 acre lake to cause hardly any problem for nitrobans. Plus, you have said before that it is spring fed and drains regularly. Even freshwater fish benefit considerably from the salt in the water. It improves gill function and keeps their blood healthier.

Most road salt has Calcium Chloride added to improve the melting ability at lower temps though and that can pose a problem. While the calcium is a good thing the chlorides are not.

I've been following your shad posts and other fun times you've been experiancig from the start. I'm sure you are going to get your lake improved a great deal next year. On the issue of road salt though, I don't think it's an issue. Even if it were a problem, Safe, ice free roads will require the use of salt and I'm sure the value of human life will win over the value of a lake.................except maybe in fantasyland (california).

I seriously would not concern myself with this battle.

FWIW, I raise Tilapia fingerlings and CNBG in my aquariums and I add 1 cup of salt for every 55 gallons and COULD safely add more. Try to visualize how many tons of salt would be required in the millions of gallons of water in your lake.

Thanks R.Man:
Unfortunately, they have a drainage ditch along a main, heavily traveled road it goes directly into our lake. This is the one we are trying to get the county to move. Then we get run-off from another main-road that enters the sub. I watch and see that the areas around these inlets into the lake don't freeze like some of the others. SO you don't think salt is a problem?

I really don't think it poses any danger. If it were harming the ponds ecological balance much at all, the fish would be in pretty poor shape and the problems would have shown up long before now.

I have also been wondering about your pond. Since you describe so many storm drains, I am thinking this lake was built more as a retention pond for runoff as it's main purpose. If this is the case (lake and homes built at the same time), re-routing ANY runoff is probably topographically impossible. That is not to say that a quality fishery can not double as a retention pond, but retention (ie flood control) will always be it's primary use.

Best analogy is moving to the country and trying to eliminate wildlife.

You said earlier that fertilizer containing phosphorus has now been banned. While some homeowners will ignore that ban (and some lawn services), it will be greatly reduced. I think this act alone will show very visible and huge improvment to the water quality next year.

R,M.
We actually have a good shot at getting one diverted, the main one. If I can show the level of salt coming in there, it will help the case. Actually, the one on the main road is a quick fix and the form c.manager who approved it who lives here has gone with us and said he made a mistake when he approved re-routing it into this lake. It will be even easier when a buttload of people show up to protest their tax bills after the first - a motivating factor. They have clean water act rules to comply with.
It is a rain water detention pond that has successfully functioned as a beautiful lake for about 30 years. We are working with county commissioners now.
It has been (1) mismanaged, (2) neglected, (3) treated too late and CLPondweed choked it out, (4) the outflow was left open and the county drainage ditch was allowed to backflow in the lake (5)overtreated with copper sulfate big time (this may have screwed up lots of things since they killed all the plants). It is possible the g. shad came in the outflow, or someone may have used them for bait. We are also banning live bait other than worms. We have a colorimeter and can test any fertilizer particles we find in the sub.
Use of products changed in mich. 1n 2003, and when our old applicator left, the lake went to crap. I have my own ideas about that.
We always treated 3x per year, now 13 (more often less chem) and still have planktonic green water with green bubbles in the middle of the summer. And it was a very cold summer this past year. The new co. uses better products, and rotates them When we test the P is zero (taken up by the algae) but our nitrates are off the charts compared to the other lakes: the gizzards have to go. And I'm interested in bacteria. You had to be here to see how much chemicals were put in, they made the lake worse. Our sediment is good, have had 2 studies, not much change. Keep thinking of good ideas. Thanks.

PS R.Man:
Nobody is moving, this is metro Detroit, Michigan. Houses are down at least $100,00 over 5 year ago prices, and there are no buyers. We are stuck here, and will fix the lake, there is not other choice. The bluegill are really little, there are trophy bass, not enough 1, 2, 3 year olds, and the g.shad are taking over.
We are promoting BMP's and installing buffer zones, etc.

Lynda, one thing you may also want to consider talking with the new management company is using Alum this summer. If it's decided to try to low dose retenone the Gshad AND you get a large algea bloom again, Alum (aluminum sulfate) in a large dose along with hydrated lime WILL eliminate the algae (shad food source) and will bind the phosphorus from ever being taken back up into the algae. The downside to this is ALL yoy fish will lose the algae to feed on and without supplemental aeration a DO crash may occur from the algea die-off.

Thanks:
Our new board pres looked into alum, very tough to get approved in Michigan and really expensive. I believe all our problems can be solved. Trying to get anything done is like an act of congress here-I know how those auto execs feel. If we can get beneficial plants back (we used to have lots of chara) to take up some phos and hold the sediment down it would help. With the clarity so poor (21") there is no sunlight to the bottom, that is why that bacteria sounds interesting, it does say clarity is improved with it. Live Science website ranked microbes and phytoremediation as #8 in the top 10 emerging enviro. technologies. I don't think we have a native seed bank, people thought we would have stuff come back, but it didn't last year, maybe this year. We go green by the 2nd week in June. There is lots of info on road salt not being good out there too. Would you choose the low dose rotonone over killing all the fish?

Dry Alum has no regulations that I'm aware of, even in california. It is extremely safe and is ,or was, used in virtually every drinking water system in the USA. It is in all fast food hamburgers, pickled and canned veggies as a crisper, and most municipal drinking water. Plus alum is only around .35 per pound. The cost is far, far, far less that any bacteria remediation you'll find.

I'm confused here. I thought a fishing lake was the goal. 21" of clarity is near perfect. If you want a "clear" lake, I don't know what to tell ya.

As for the rotenone and shad, I would drain, re-work the bottom, and start over. The low dose rotenone may work. I feel that your giving the larger bass "pet status" may cloud your jusdgement on long term goals.

As for the bacteria, they can be good, but way too expensive for the end results. With the exception of alum, which I have used and abused with zero prioblem, I won't used pond chemicals. And I feel the bottom line on the salt is, the pond has fish, including the enviromentally very sensitive shad, and they are thriving, so IMHO, the salt is of no concern.

Obviously I don't live there, but I have no doubt the biggest problem you'll face is all the home owners have differing ideas of what the lake "should" be, just like on this forum.

I'll offer thought and ideas on anything I can help you with.

Hey R.M.:
The goal is to have a healthy, vibrant lake like it was in the past, with better water clarity and a balanced blue gill and LM Bass fishery. The lake is mostly a swimming, floating, sailing, paddleboat lake. 3 of our 6 lakes are in very good shape, ours is the "Problem" lake, one other isn't so hot, but none as bad as ours. We have had white scum, green bubbles (sticks to my skin when I am measuring out there). We have had neon green water after the 2nd week of June since 2004.
Water clarity is the biggest predictor of property values on "lakes." It really is probably a "Pond" but developed and sold as ________ Lake Estates. Former gravel pit, all sand.
We are the only one that has run-off from outside of the sub - development of this area since the time it was built is quite large.
One thing I found today regarding problems with road salt
"Pond Stratification: High salt content nun-off into ponds & small lakes next to intensively salted roads can form a dense layer over the bottom that restricts oxygen transport from overlaying water in contact with the air. This can lead to oxygen deficiency problems in addition to exposing bottom (benthic) organisms to high salt concentrations for extended time periods.
I believe we are going down the wrong road with all the chemicals. They treat the symptoms, not the problem.

I agree with you whole heartedly on the chemicals and too much salt. My only question is what the study you cite considers "high concentrations". My first thought is when it says "can form a dense layer" that the concentration would have to be so high that no more salt could be dissolved.

I have no idea what the numbers would be to accopmlish that, but it would have to ba an absolutely incredible amount of salt.

What depth is the water clarity goal?

We would like to be at least one to two feet more. When I first moved here it was five or six feet, now it is 21". We are 8 to 10 feet at the deepest, but it drops off sort of fast. I would like to be able to see my feet when standing in water up to my waist, I would be happy with that, I am 5'8". Now I can't see my feet with the water hitting my knees. Very turbid water with high TDS. Although not the worst year overall last year (remember new company taking it much easier, and treating the CLP just before it hits the surface, using more expensive products)I did note that right from the start last year it was worse than previous years. We all get so excited, and I try to warn people, it is early, wait until the 2nd week of June, but this past year it wasn't as good early on as previous years. We had a hard winter, but it came on late, this year winter has been very hard and very early, more like winters used to be. We are ice covered with snow (who knows maybe we will have a natural fish kill?). Last week the water was 42 degrees under the ice. We have had many mild winters and very hot early summers, except for last year it was a cold summer. I used to be able to stand on my deck (we are all right on top of the water) and see where the CLP was growing all over the lake, last spring I had to be in the kayak with polorized sunglasses, right on top of it to see it.
The salt testing will help with our case to divert the drain.
The fish kill will help, we have now closed the flap valve so the drainage ditch doesn't rush in, we are banning phos and have Scott's co. offering a tailored reduced program in the sub., we have the best treatment guys anyone could ask for, and Margaret and I will not give up. We are on the right track. We will have the treatment company test salinity on all the lakes in the early spring and compare. There is a perception thing when it comes to killing the fish and an education process. I admit it, I am attached to those fish, they wait for me to feed them and follow me along the shore, and are smart enough to know when another person is with me and take off. The fish survey guys took away 35 lbs of the shad and 7 carp, but didn't think we had a carp problem at all.
Thank you for your interest.