Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose White Crappie vs Black Crappie

OK guys....I am going to take the plung into the Crappie world this coming spring. First off I am going to get a load of shad and drop in. Then I need to decide for about a 10 acre lake which is better. The Black Crappie or the White Crappie?

Which one grows bigger? Which is better of the two Evils in a pond enviroment? Which ones are availible from the hachery?


Thank Guy and Gals

The answers to these and other questions, as well as associated questions no one has answers for yet, as stated by a host of favorites, can be found in Crappie Pond

CW says go with Black Crappie; but CW also says no Crappie at all. Lots of free thinking in the above thread.

Big Pond ;

Look at this thread from about a mth. ago on crappie ponds. It has a ton of info including white vs black crappie. Don't forget that there are hybrid crappie (black x white mix)which may have some advantages (less reproduction).

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002275

The choice will be influnced by your goals and pond characteristics.

I forgot to add these to links to crappie summaries from Fishbase :

Black
http://filaman.ifm-geomar.de/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=3388

White
http://filaman.ifm-geomar.de/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=3387

White or Black? It basically depends on the water quality in your pond.

White crappie do well in murkier water or water that is occassionally clouded with clay or silt partricles and or persistant plankton blooms; visibilities commonly 2' - 2.5 ft or less.

Black crappie will grow better than white crappie in relatively clear waters, those frequently with visibilities of 3ft or greater.

Surveys have frequently shown the above information to be pretty consistant when both species are present in the same water body.

In last years thread on this subject. I read where people were leaning towards the Black Crappie because they feed better on Plankton and are some what less dependent on fish. While the white crappie needed a better bait fish forage to thrive. So everyone favored the "Black crappie as the lesser of the two evils.

Now, this year, there is a new thread started with talk of White Crappie as the favorite, what gives? Why the change of heart? Have people NOW found an advantage to White Crappie all of a sudden. If so what is it>

You all know my "funcky" pond situation by now, I'm SURE. I am just trying to figure on which species I have the best chance at for my conditions.

Sound like though if I choose White Crappie then I will need a good Threadfin Population

Since there is some dabate, why not stock both species of crappie and let them decide?

Well before I jump out the window I sort of hoped I could get a good Dose of you all's reading of the Pro's and cons of both fish. I know you all know ALOT about both species.

the lack of posting might mean we all know little about each species?

Big_Pond....This is a link to the Mo.Dept of Con. Click on the managing crappie in small impoundments. Very good info. Aqua Guides

;) yeah I know.....LOL

I don't think so. I think we are just exhausted from the prior crappie post which has lots of info. If you reallly, realllly want to dig into the subject there is enough to keep you reading for about aaahhh say about a mth. !!! But be ready to be quite at the enigma that crappie represent and the conundrum that they leave you with. LOL

Here is an interesting one.

Quasi-cycles in crappie populations are forced by interactions among population characteristics and environment

Micheal S. Allen and Leandro E. Miranda
Can. J. Fish. Aquat. Sci./J. can. sci. halieut. aquat. 58(3): 594-601 (2001)

Abstract: Crappie (Pomoxis spp.) populations have been characterized as cyclic, with strong year-classes recurring at 2- to 4-year intervals. We evaluated the potential for cyclic trends in crappie populations using a population model that included a density-dependent stock recruitment function and random environmental variation. Slow, medium, and fast growth were simulated over 100 years. The model predicted highly variable recruitment that was strongly influenced by environmental fluctuation at low and intermediate stock densities. At high stock density, recruitment was low, even if environmental conditions were favorable. Significant quasi-cycles occurred, but they were not sustained throughout the time series due to random environmental fluctuation. Quasi-cycles occurred because intermediate stock density and favorable environmental conditions occasionally combined to produce a very strong year-class that greatly increased stock density in the following 1–3 years and produced low recruitment, even if environmental conditions were favorable. Empirical data from 32 years of sampling age-0 crappies at Ross Barnett Reservoir showed trends similar to the simulated fluctuations. We conclude that crappie populations likely do not exhibit true cycles but may show quasi-cycles as a result of the interaction between random fluctuations in environment and density-dependent mechanisms. The frequency of such quasi-cycles may be enhanced by rapid growth and high exploitation.

Here are three more out of about 100 to think about.

Comparisons of Triploid and Diploid White Crappies
GLENN R. PARSONS

Freshwater Biology Program, Department of Biology, The University of Mississippi, University, Mississippi 38677, USA

Abstract.—I produced triploid white crappies Pomoxis annularis in the laboratory by subjecting stripped eggs to 5°C for 90 min. This treatment produced triploids on three out of seven attempts, yielding 92%, 93%, and 100% triploids. I compared several hematological characteristics of adult triploid and diploid white crappies. Triploids had significantly lower concentrations of circulating red blood cells and hemoglobin than diploids but their red blood cells had significantly greater volumes and hemoglobin contents. Diploids had significantly higher gonadosomatic indices. Diploids and triploids did not differ significantly in heart weight as a percentage of body weight or in standard metabolic rate, active metabolic rate, or critical swimming speeds. Despite the hematological differences, nonreproductive triploid white crappie adults appear to be as fit for survival as normal diploid fish.


Comparison of Triploid Hybrid Crappie and Diploid White Crappie in Experimental Ponds
GLENN R. PARSONS

Department of Biology, The University of Mississippi, University, Mississippi 38677, USA

KEITH MEALS

Mississippi Department of Wildlife, Fisheries and Parks, 310 Shoemaker Hall, University, Mississippi 38677, USA

Abstract.—We crossed female white crappies Pomoxis annularis with male "black-stripe" black crappies P. nigromaculatus to yield hybrids possessing a distinct coloration that may serve as a natural tag when fish are introduced into existing crappie populations. Eggs of these hybrids were cold shocked to produce triploid hybrid crappies. In three spawns, the black stripe was expressed in 100% of hybrids that were not cold shocked and 85% of hybrids that were cold shocked. Coldshocked hybrids were 95% triploid and 5% diploid. Triploid hybrids bearing the black stripe and diploid white crappies without the black stripe were stocked into experimental ponds for growth and survival comparisons. There were inconsistent differences in growth, body condition, and survival of triploid hybrids and diploid white crappies after 1,151 d in ponds, but the gonads of triploid hybrids were consistently smaller than those of diploid white crappies for each sex. No reproduction was observed in ponds with triploid hybrids, whereas reproduction occurred in ponds with diploid white crappies. Although better growth and survival were not consistently observed among triploid hybrids, the lack of reproduction may be an advantage over diploid white crappies in the management of small impoundments.

Evaluation of F1 Hybrid Crappies as Sport Fish in Small Impoundments
MICHAEL L. HOOE and D. HOMER BUCK

Illinois Natural History Survey, Sam Parr Biological Station, Rural Route 1, Box 174, Kinmundy, Illinois 62854, USA

Abstract.—Growth and reproductive characteristics of reciprocal F1 and F2 hybrid crappies–white crappies Pomoxis annularis × black crappies P. nigromaculatus–were examined to determine if hybrids are better suited for stocking in small impoundments than their parent species. Relative weight gains of the reciprocal age-0 F1 and F2 hybrid crappies were not significantly different (P = 0.55), but the relationship may have been masked by differences in initial sizes of the test fish. Second-year relative growth rates of both reciprocal F1 hybrids were significantly greater than growth of either of the parent species and, with one exception, than growth of the reciprocal F2 hybrids. The reciprocal F1 hybrid crappies were capable of backcrossing with their parent species, and both reciprocal F1 hybrid male crappies had viabilities equal to those of their parent species. Egg viability for the F1 hybrid black crappie female × white crappie male appeared equal to that of the parent species and greater than that of its reciprocal hybrid. Recruitment in ponds was highest for the pure species, intermediate for the F1 hybrids, and lowest for the F2 hybrids. This study confirmed that F1 hybrid crappies may offer a viable alternative to stocking parent species in small impoundments, the F1 hybrid white crappie female × black crappie male being preferable to its reciprocal hybrid. We recommend that hybrid crappies be used only on an experimental basis pending a more thorough evaluation of the incidence and effects of backcrossing with parent species.

Lots of people love Crappies - whoever can produce sterile triploids reliably and economically enough to sell should have a lot of market.

Heck, I have almost zero interest in Crappies, but I'd probably put in some triploids just to check them out. Would I ever stock fertile Crappies - no.

Guys,
When someone calls me, looking for crappie, it's not for anther sportfish. Most want them for meat. A handful of people want them for diversity. But rarely are they a target fish. After a short discussion about how crappie behave, feed and spawn, most people choose another fish. Since private hatcheries are market driven, there hasn't been much of a motive for many hatcheries to work with crappie. And, it's a rare private fish hatchery who does much research and development. They believe that should be reserved for universities. But, over the last six or seven years, there has been some capitalistic rumblings about triploidy and crappie. So, it may be time for one of those hatcheries to figure it out. It's still something of a catch-22. Unpredictability of crappie while working with other predictable species of fish takes special effort from hatchery personnel. They need a spark. That spark comes from a market.

Re: Ewest's posted studies, as I have posted before, Keith Meals, with the Miss. fisheries is going to be working with the new hatchery below the Enid Res. dam, in producing triploids for stocking in the lakes. He stated that he has given the info freely to some interested hatcheries. Maybe something will be forthcoming.

Private hatcheries will only be motivated to use that information when they see it will put shoes on hatchery manager's kids. It's probably time guys like us start inquiring of some of the bigger sportfish hatcheries, especially those in Arkansas, to let them know we would actually be ready to buy enough to justify their efforts. I'm at that point. As a matter of fact, I will call a couple of them in a few minutes and check their pulse. Will let you know the response shortly.

I called three of the largest sportfish hatcheries in America and talked at length about triploid crappie. They aren't interested. The most vocal was Mark Stephens, of Hopper-Stephens Hatcheries in Lonoke, Arkansas. His quote, "We won't raise triploid crappie in my lifetime."
Here's his rationale. First, triploidy isn't 100%. That means fish must be tested, if they intend to market them as triploids. To test, hatchery personnel must draw blood, from the brachial artery, to run through the Coulter Counter. Any crappie sedated, handled, punctured, then released, will likely die. Crappie are extremely delicate fish to handle. Because of heavy labor requirements, delicate nature of the fish, less than 100% triploidy, and unpredictability of spawns, individual triploid crappie would have to be sold somewhere from $4.00-8.00 each. Toss in the fact that crappie are low density fish in a hatchery pond, and every motive a hatchery owner has is corrupted. Why raise these fish, when they can raise tens of thousands of bluegill, catfish, etc., in a pond where they might raise a few hundred triploid crappie? It doesn't make sense to them.
Until some research somewhere shows triploid crappie can be raised similar to triploid grass carp, or catfish, or bluegill, or fathead minnows, or....don't expect many people to give it whirl to supply any kind of market beyond regional.
On another interesting note, Stephens is absolutely convinced there is one glaring wives tale about triploidy. The common thinking is triplod fish grow much faster and convert their feed much better because no energy goes to gonad development. "Hogwash" says Stephens. He says diploid grass carp far outgrow their triploid brothers. When his crews bring in a batch of 'triploid' grass carp and place them in a vat, he can walk by and pretty much tell which ones won't test out as triploids. Diploids are the biggest fish in the batch. He has seen it over and over.
I asked him if he had seen or read the latest info about triploid crappie work in Mississippi, and he said, "Yes, I keep up with things like that all the time." But, he isn't swayed, at least not yet in this lifetime.

I go back to Big Pond's initial question , assuming that crappie WILL be stocked into a 5 acre pond which one or combination do you use ; white , black, both, hybrid crosses , and or if you can find some dip./trip. (with the questions/uncertainty).

The point of posting the studies was not to say do X but to let BP know of the options and to again repeat " If you reallllly, realllllly want to dig into the subject there is enough to keep you reading for about aaahhh say about a mth. !!! But be ready to be quite at the enigma that crappie represent and the conundrum that they leave you with. LOL"

The studies are only 4 of about 100+ and point out : 1. reproductivity - cyclical and uncertain 2. hybrid crosses exist and may/probably have lower fecundity with no obvious growth and hybrid vigor/loss problems 3. Dip./Trips exist, may be hard to find and out of a batch of them some may/probably will reproduce but at low fecundity (as compared to others).

So with all the info , studies and past discussion of options on stocking and management what does BP do remembering that he is not a fisheries scientist who will be devoting a ton of time to managing the pond (not an aquaculture operation)?

Bob -- thanks for that update!! Going right to the source: priceless.

Just a tidbit, but really a tangent. One of my grad school buddies raised black crappie fingerlings in culture ponds for his thesis work. All fingerlings harvested from the culture ponds during daylight died. He had very high survival when finishing the pond draining, and then removing the fingerlings from the cement kettle, by working completely after dark. Touchy little guys!