Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Creating the food chain Do I HAVE to feed my fish??

This fall I finished digging my new pond (1.4 acres)and so in anticipation of stocking it with fish next spring, I started calling local fisheries to see what they recommended. To my surprise, no mater what spices or combination of species, I might want, they are telling me that I have to either pellet feed or set up some sort of minnow stocking program. Is it not reasonable to expect some sort of natural equilibrium fish population that supports itself like would be the state in a natural lake?? If so, how do I get it set up?

No, feeding with either pellets or supplemental minnow stocking is not necessary. There are at least 2 or 3 species combinations which could be utilized in Michigan that should result in a fishery that can remain fairly balanced given small to middlin' amounts of management (As to the meaning of "management" think fishing and returning some fish, whle removing others. Kind of what one might want a pond for.)

Consider the following combos and let us know which appeals to you. We'll help out with stocking recommendations and a rough idea on how much management (by angling and perhaps other methods, such as seining, trapping, spawn enhancement/degredation) would be needed for it.

BG/LMB is a classical combo that would work fine for you, IF you stock regular (NOT hybrid) BG. Sometimes non-hybrid BG have been reported as being hard to obtain in MI. Given several months head start, you should be able to line them up even if they have to be brought in from out of state.

YP/SMB is another possibility that should be self-sustaining wrt reproduction given minor spawning habitat assurances.

If you are interested in restocking predators in the out years, Walleyes or other more esoteric predators would probably do well in appropriate numbers with a forage base of YP and/or GShiners.

Other forum members can chime in with options for you to consider.

Thanks Theo,

Is there any reason not to incorporate both the combinations you have suggested? Why not the HB BGs? I like fish that are fun to catch and good to eat. Perch, bass (LMB & SMB), and wallies sound great. The only other fish id like to eat would be RT.

I should have mentioned that my pond has a maximum depth of 20' and the overflow discharge is from the bottom of that depth. Some of the contractors thought I was crazy. Also, I stacked about a dozen wood pallets on shelves about 3' to 6'below the water surface in a couple of locations around the pond edge for habitat. Next summer I'm planing to install a wind powered aerator, no electricity on the farm.

Mike

Theo has given great advice although I'm not sure I would have used "esoteric" in it as I had to look it up!

While there is some truth in what you heard from the various hatcheries, there might have also been some efforts to sell you more things, but it would be unfair to say that without the whole picture being put out by any given hatchery or fish seller.

Some kind of food chain has to be created, and feeding pellets can help make the lowest rungs of the food chain more healthy, thus producing better for the higher rungs.

So while pellet feeding is not a necessity as Theo has shown, it can have a role in "jumpstarting" things; pellet feeding can be done many ways and at many cost levels, from throwing feed by hand to automated feeders.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm more talking about feed to clarify what some of the fish sellers might have meant.

YP tend to be outcompeted by BG - the latter have higher fecundity (produce more offspring) and the torpedo-like YP shape is easier for predators to swallow (hence they are preferred eating). SMB are at a disadvantage wrt LMB; Largemouths can swallow larger prey than Smallies of the same size, and reproduction is more of a sure thing for LMB than it is for SMB.

If used in combo with BG or LMB, YP or SMB will usually require periodic restocking to maintain a presence.


If used with LMB, HBG's very low (wrt regular BG) reproduction does a very poor job of producing forage for the bass. HBG normally require periodic restocking for the same reason.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with fish requiring restocking now and then, if that's what you want to do.



How far North in Michigan are you? RT may be possible year-round for you. If not, they can make a great Fall-Winter-Spring bonus fish.

That reminds me of the time DD talked about when they hooked up the eclectic to Muleshoe.

I'm in Howell Michigan, which is generally hot for about six weeks from mid July to September. ie 80 to 90 deg F high daytime temperatures. Would the deep water with aeration be sufficient to keep them happy? The water flow into and therefor out of the pond will most likely stop during that time except for heavy rains. I do have a large 30 acre watershed feeding my pond. Most of my water source comes through an underground county drain. It is cold when it flows but I have not actually measured the temperature of it. The drain is about 3' below grade and flows into my small detention pond before going into the main pond. I would not expect RT to reproduce, but if they would live I would not mind restocking them from time to time.

once water temps reach 80 degree's the trout wont survive, but why not stock them to catch and eat in the winter thru spring

i would put 50-60 in and see what happens , have you priced 7-9 inch trout (how much?)

its worth a shot!!

7-9" Rainbow Trout are $2.20 ea in my neck of the woods.
4-6" are $1.26 ea

TMK

I'm down the road from you by Whitmore Lake. I'm experimenting with YP, LMB and native BG mixes in two ponds. They are both deep at 25'. Aerators at 15-18'.

I do hand feed once a day, 5 days a week. I feed mainly so I can keep an eye on the ratio of predator to prey. I went with native BG as prey. Stocked 2 years ago from Imlay City Fish Farm. Believe what eveyone says regarding native BG reproduction.....they are prolific. They are keeping the LMB/YP fat and happy. Most fisheries want to sell Hybrid BG because you will have to restock and/or buy feed. I don't anticipate ever having to add more native BG. Native BG do require active pond management. If I stopped feeding, I have no doubt the LMB/YP would not starve and I'd still have to cull some BG.

I'm going to have to do some culling starting next spring. If you choose to go with the native BG and can't find any next year, let me know.

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

What do you think about having both Native AND Hi Bread BGs together? Thanks for your input. How are you going to extract the Natives next spring?

Mike

I did that, stocking equal numbers of both, and didn't see a Hybrid after the second year or so.

I added both too at about 10:1 native to HB. The Hybrids grew faster at first but the native standards surpassed them in a couple of years. There are theories that the hybrids will compete for nesting ground with the standards and the offspring resulting from them will be inferior. I found a couple of HBG/BG crosses in my pond but based on their size, these few surviors were likely produced while no predators were present in my pond. The hybrids also have larger mouths which allowing them to eat forage that could by utilized by bass. At this point I don't regret stocking them because they add a bit of diversity and are pretty aggressive but I will not restock them nor do I wish that I stocked more than I did. They are also believed to nibble on swimmers. I believe I have experienced this but luckily they don't have any teeth and the feeling was just erie not painful. There are also theories that they will continue to backcross with natives over many generations and degrade the overall population but in my limited experience, I think this is highly unlikely in a pond with predators.

OK I think I'm starting to get the Idea, so how is this for a rough stocking plan? (Brand new 1.4 acre pond, 20' max depth, w/aeration.)

Spring 2009 - 2,500 Fathead Minnows & 250,000 Gshiners if I can find them

Late summer 2009 - 300 standard BG (3-4"), 500 YP (2") & 80 (3-5") SMB (Also put in some gravel and stone around the perimeter for SMB breading areas)

Spring 2010 - 80 LMB (3-4"), 30 Wallies (4-6"). Restock the Wallies at a rate of about 10 or 12 a year each spring (6-8").

Fall 2010 (40 RT 7" or larger) Also need restocking at a small rate if they live.

Does anybody think this might work?

Spring 2009: Make it 10 lbs of FHM (which would be on the order of 2000-3000). I would be tempted to order 250,000 GSH fry from Anderson's, which might total more Shiners than 200 would produce in their once-yearly spawn (???). It is certainly a valid alternative if you have trouble finding Shiners locally.

After that, provide sizes of the various fish and I will attempt to make a fool of myself on the rest of the figures.

See revised Plan above.

I think I'm good with all of the 2009 phases of the plan.

I defer to higher authorities (Willis, Cody, etc.) on stocking LMB & WE, but I suspect a delay of an additional year might be in order to let YP and SMB (and the permanent BG forage base) get better established.

Mike

The people with more experience/education did/will share their thought on native BG and HBG mix. My research told me exactly what has been said....HBG will disappear and you will have to restock after a few years.

Probably try and trap the smallest BG. Some fishing will also be done to get the larger(4-6") BG. It will all be determined next spring to see who makes it thru the winter without getting eaten. Right now I have a boatload of yoy BG. The last spawn of the year was a good one. Pretty sure I had 3 healthy BG spawns this year.

Chuck

I would shy away from HBG. I have them in my pond and I am trying to get rid of them. They will compete with your BG and your predator fish. In my opinion standard BG put up more of a fight than HBG anyway. In my experience standard BG also grow larger than HBG. Also, HBG will not produce enough to sustain a healthy predator population.

Now that I have told you the down side of HBG. The up side is that they will bite anything aggressively, and Kids love to catch them.

Yesterday I talked to one of the local fishries again to see if they had any Golden Shiners. They don't. Apparantly that is not a popular forage fish in this area, (Michigan). In addition when I told him my pond was brand new he advised that I wait a year befor stocking anyway. Anyone else agree with that?

Another interesting thing; he said pellet fed fish taste like the pellets? That would be another reason not to feed the fish.

Mike

I wouldn't wait a year before stocking any fish at all - your starting forage base can get going during that first year along with volunteer invertebrates, frogs, plants, etc. In the unlikely event that something to do with the pond killed the FHM/GSH, you are out very little money compared to BG/bass/etc.

Mike

I have GSH in my ponds. There are pro/cons to GSH just like all the stocking choices. I'm pleased to have them in my pond. The initial fathead minnows were gone in short order. The GSH are much better at eluding the predators and seem to be maintaining their numbers. They are working well in my situation. I'm relying on the GSH and native BG as prey for the YP and LMB. I'd like to believe I've been getting the very good growth of my YP with the GSH as a bonus prey species.

I've not seen anyone on this board or anywhere else ever suggest to wait to begin stocking fish. The only delay would be for the predators which you already understand. Maybe fish prices are depressed right now and he wants you to wait to buy fish until prices go back up .

I can't comment on the pellet taste but.......One thing I do know there sure are alot of people on this board who feed.

Since I have my tinfoil firmly in place these days .....Let me understand: A)being suggested not to feed. B)GSH are not popular. C)Is this guy pushing hybrid BG also? Sounds like he is a great businessman!! Setting himself up with a customer for future sales? A self-sustaining fishery would be bad for his business. It appears you are choosing to be an educated consumer. We are in the minority so he'll do just fine with the majority who take the sales pitch at face value.

Chuck

Well i call horse__it on the fish tasting like pellets! We had a fish fry with some of my channel cats this summer and they eat pellets like garbage disposals. You would have paid money to eat this fish it was so good!!

Thanks guys,

It occurs to me that if you elect to feed your fish you should be able to raise almost anything, or almost any combination of species. Sort of unnatural, and maybe less of a challenge? I just can't get past the idea that a lot of northern lakes have some great fishing without any help or intervention by anybody. They don't seem to get messed up until they are over fished or otherwise disturbed by man. Am I expecting too much?

You may be expecting too much. You have a small body of water that can easily become imbalanced. Small changes in the dynamics of your pond can greatly affect the fish population. Removing too few or too many fish can become a problem in small waters. Larger bodies of water seem to need less intervention.

I'm not saying that with a small body of water you cant have a nice self sufficient fish population. I'm just saying that us small pond owners have different challenges than people who manage large lakes. If your goals are to have a balanced natural fishery then your goals are certainly achievable without feeding. I'm a big records keeper on my pond. I suggest keeping creel records when you fish. If one species seems too small or too thin then make adjustments.

Feeding will not allow you to raise whatever you want. However feeding does help get the bottom of the food chain going. I feed my BG and whatever else wants to eat. For me it's easy and pretty cheap. Feeding is also a great way for me to watch the fish and enjoy the pond.

To feed or not to feed that is the question. for me the answer is feed for you it may be not to feed. Either way (with a little management) you can have a pond that is balanced and fun to fish.

Let us know how things go.