Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Cecil envy

Ewest, he is not in Mississippi or Texas; it still MAY get a little nippy for the next few weeks. We are all anxious to see the battle of the perches. I still want some of the male RES/female YP F1's.

BM :

YP are a simi-cold water fish unlike RES. YP can thrive and eat and etc. in winter water. They would have the advantage over the RES for a lot of the year in Bruce's ponds. YP have been found to be seriously munching on small BG all winter in the north waters. They can handle Bruce's water easily if acclimated correctly and keep right on growing. In fact it is the waters warm status in small ponds in summer that would be the bigger problem. Then the BG and RES would have the advantage.

That cross would be scary with red teeth and red pharyngeal crushers and yellow eyes and the ability to grow year round in hot or cold water --- hhmmm -- a real pond terror. And remember that some of the YP were subject to being boiled alive and thus have a real mean streak to them.

I am fearing for Bruce's safety.

I believe Bruce is abusing his Yellow Perch and Redear Sunfish by using harsh language and making funny faces during feeding time; the fish then associate the pleasures of eating with the distinct displeasures of verbal abuse and sardonic imagery.

I believe this is making his fish take pleasure in destructive activities.

The end result is a common theme in western history where the keeper (Bruce) becomes the victim.

I've seen that movie too.

Yes, they have been thru the wringer alright. Scalding water, low O2, too much then too little light, verbal and visual abuse. They will be a rowdy crowd, but, remember, it's not their fault; they are a product of their environment.

Ewest, I gotcha. They were put in 55-60 degree water to take to artificial feeding, now some are big enough to start scarfing on live prey. But aren't they going in with adult male RES?
Maybe there is smaller forage, or will they continue to eat the pellets now even in colder water? Don't know much about YP, except that even when small they are scrappy and taste really good.

You're right, Burgermeister.

They are going in with adult male RES and adult male BG. Since there should be no reproduction, I expect a pretty significant community of large to XL size invertebrates. I suspect that some of these fish will retain their preference for artificial feed and others will turn to the big dragonfly nymphs that seem to pop up in the ponds with no YOY fish.

Ideally these yellow perch that are grown in the rubbermaid tank will always be able to fall back on artificial feed when necessary. The invertebrates will be available cyclically, and when they aren't I'd like to keep the growth rates to a maximum.

I know this sounds like a ridiculous amount of work for a .15 acre pond, but when you're trying to create the ultimate fishing hole for your dad, you'll try some creative things.

Bruce :

Great idea and report. You could always add a few FH's to help them all along with no adverse effect or some worms and mix in some high % floating and sinking foods and all will live happily ever after.

I thought about the fatheads too, but if you could see my other ponds you'd realize how much the bluegill are benefiting from the population of oversized invertebrates. If I added FH, then my invertebrate population would crash, and my adult panfish would have to chase down FH, which swim a lot faster than dragonfly nymphs. Keep in mind that I don't have any YOY YP, BG or RES to put pressure on YOY fatheads. I think I might get overrun, and have no recourse other than to drain and rotenone. I'm not positive about this scenario, but it's just plausible enough to scare me.

Dr Bruce, I extrapolated sizes and weights of YP to come up with somewhere close to 9.36g/L (1.246oz/gallon, 35.36grams/gallon). Currently you have about 187 oz (5305g)of YP in the 150 gallons. Cecil may be able to provide some "normal" (light, medium, & high) RAS carrying capacities. If not I can look them up.

That's just great!

Where else but Pond Boss could you ask a question like that and get such an awesome answer?

Bruce :

A few fatheads as in 15-20 at a time will not last long in a pond full of large BG , RES and YP. Nor will they eat much before they are consumed esp. if you add them in fall or winter. That is why I said a few , as in supp. if you need to. If you are concerned and need an extra food source then do what a friend of mine does and cut off the tail of the FH with clippers and then put them in. Then they are quickly eaten or die.

ewest,

This is a horrifyingly simple way to move protein to my "hopefully someday to be giant" perch.

One interesting thing that I learned about Bob Lusk while he was here is that if he agrees with you he'll give you a big smile and confirmation of your deep and undeniable wisdom. But if he doesn't agree with you he will produce a wry smile and say something to the effect of "I'm not entirely sure of that", then he'll make you think it through by posing a question or alternative. An example would be as follows:

Bruce: "Bob, I'm looking forward to moving these biggest perch into my new pond, since they'll be all females".

Bob: "I'm not entirely sure about that. If you don't see egg formation, could it be that a couple of your biggest perch in the tank are just the most agressive"?

Bruce: "Ulp"

Bruce :

They are forage -- as in they get eaten .To me it is no different than catching a fish and cleaning it and cooking it or sacrificing some for info purposes.

I agree with you on Bob's methods from my 2 meetings ,other conservations and his writings. I find it much like Bill C.'s admonition to us all -- "that it all depends".

I will look for some info on YP sex iding at the pre-adult stage if you like. Not sure the connection , if any , with the above post on supp. FH for YP. Let me know what I am missing.

Man your temps. have really dropped. May be to cold for a while to move the YP anyway. No need to subject them to the wild up and downs -- to much added stress for no reason.

Oh, yeah! I'm going to do it. It beats the heck out of dropping crawlers into the abyss. At least these minnows will churn until they become snacks. I meant horrifying as in "evil redear, molar crusher bluegill, cannibal yellow perch, dismembered fathead come back to haunt ya" kind of horrifying. :p

You aren't missing a thing. Sometimes when I write I can be so lacking in focus that others think they're missing something--but they really aren't. I must talk that way too, because my wife always looks at me like she's missing something. :p

I get it now. I think feeding worms would be great as you could watch them pull the worms apart as they all try to grab one at the same time. My BG/RES did that well. I don't know if worms have enough lipids though . I will look for the info.

I like the minnow idea so much because during the summer my ponds have a growth along the bottom of sago pondweed which, in the presence of a minor algae bloom may mean that my expensive piece of protein (wormie) may fall unnoticed to the bottom and never be used. The minnows however should stay suspended long enough for my rubbermaid perch to get a bead on 'em. I'd think that if you really want a perch to grow to a mammoth that he would have to have more than just pellets. Just a pet theory of mine that I've developed studying bluegills. Forage diversity may be as important as forage quantity.

Bruce, I've always thought that natural food is important to the health and growth of a fish. High protien pellet fed bass seem to have a head that is disproportionate to their body. I believe it was you that once posted something about unhealthy looking livers in high protien fed bluegills. That would seem to indicate a shortened life span and growth potential.

I once, several years ago, posted a question about how often to feed catfish. Lusk responded, I believe, that you should pellet feed no more than 5 days per week. Something about overall health and I have no idea where that post is. As usual, I have imperfect memory and could be wrong.

The monster bass in California lakes do nicely on a diet of trout. So far, nobody has been able to replicate their growth with pellets, even as a subsidy. From a conversion rate standpoint, high protien pellets work but I wonder if they give the fish the opportunity to really live long enough to become truly mammoth.

Of course, along comes Cecil with his record size perch and trout. I don't know the difference in his fish and sunfish but he ought to patent, copyright and license his methods. It ain't luck in his case.

Dave,

Actually me growing some big trout and some big perch is part luck and not really unique. I get them big primarily by feeding them everything they want.

I'm starting to think some of the biggest perch are feeding on pellets with the bass even though I don't see them doing so. Why? Because I have recently mounted a few of the perch and noticed considerable fatty deposits in them along with the eggs when I skinned them out. That tells me they are probably feeding on the pellets as I don't see this in fish that are feeding on natural feed.

So my mammoth perch may have gotten that way by feeding almost exclusively on the pellets. If that is the case my putting big perch in a pond by themselved may produce some really big ones.

On the other hand I can concur on your thoughts about the bass. Up until this point I'm not convinced my bass will make it up to 6 lbs. or beyond. I've had them long enough to do so, and the biggest has been a fat pig of only 19 inches and 5 lbs. 14 oz.

So what's the real scoop, Cecil? If my Rubbermaid perch go into my recreation pond this spring, would you feed them floating, sinking, or slow sinking pellets? They are going to be in with only bluegill and redears. No grass carp or largemouth to intimidate them!

...and what % protein?

Floating definitely. Too easy to waste sinking feed and have it cause algae problems etc on the bottom.

However you may want to consider feeding them in a large floating cage to keep them on feed exclusively a little longer. Just a thought. What do you think Bill? (Bill Cody)

YP links/data :

http://www.seagrant.wisc.edu/greatlakesfish/yellowperch.html

http://aquanic.org/publicat/state/oh/perchfd.pdf

http://southcenters.osu.edu/aqua/fact/perchspawn.pdf

Cecil, to my mind, doing something with consistency takes much more than luck. I think we make our own luck. I consider your continued success as being pretty unique in any field. Others may be able to match your success, but I don't get the impression that you have the unlimited budget and resources that some of them enjoy.

What is the condition of the guts and associated internals of your pellet fed bass when you disassemble them? I ask because, due to drought, I'm pretty sure that I'm going to have the opportunity to start over on at least one of my one acre water holes. I'm past thinking of it as a tragedy and getting excited about the opportunity to try something different.

Bruce, the lakes up here that grow the largest perch by far are loaded with scuds (Gammarus Lacustris). I believe they are found in your area as well. Most all large YP I catch are loaded with them. Fisherman that know, collect them for bait.

Also regarding tranporting YP in cold water, I have brought them home from ice-fishing frozen, I mean like a brick,5-6 hours later put them in the sink with water and they wake up and swim around. The kids take great pleasure in their newly thawed pets, although the wife is less than impressed :rolleyes: I'm not suggesting you transport your perch in popsicle form, just a side note.

Those YP are somthing else as they can survive hot tub boiling and popsicle-ization and still keep on ticking. Watch out BG and RES the popsicle perch are on the way.