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#13446 - 02/19/06 01:54 PM Re: Cecil envy
ewest Offline
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Good study on what YP eat in yr. 0/1 and beyond.

Age-0 and Age-1 Yellow Perch Diet in Southeastern Lake Michigan

http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pubs/fulltext/2000/20000006.pdf


Large macroinvertebrates were the main prey
eaten by age-0 yellow perch in October 1998 and
by age-1 yellow perch in June 1999. At the 15-m
site off Muskegon in October 1998, Gammarus spp.
and Isopoda were found in nearly 71% of the age-0
yellow perch, and accounted for 71 and 26%, respectively,
of the diet by weight (Table 1). The following
spring (June 1999) at 15-m off Muskegon,
Gammarus spp. and Isopoda were only a small part
of the age-1 yellow perch diet, and Chironomidae
and Mysis relicta were mainly eaten. At the 25- to
35-m site in October 1998, age-0 yellow perch fed
mainly on M. relicta, which occurred in 100 and
80% of the fish containing food off Muskegon and
St. Joseph, respectively, and accounted for almost
all of the diet by weight at both sites (> 96%)
The high occurrence of Gammarus spp. and
Isopoda in yellow perch diets suggests ongoing
changes in the nearshore benthic community are occurring.
Neither have been reported as an important
prey item for age-0 or older yellow perch in southeastern
Lake Michigan throughout the year (Wells
1980, Crowder et al. 1981, Baker et al. 1992).
Gammarus spp. densities in spring 1999 at an 18-m
site off St. Joseph were 42/m2 (T. Nalepa, unpublished
data) and higher compared to historical densities
throughout southeast Lake Michigan (Nalepa
and Quigley 1980, Winnell 1984, Nalepa 1989).
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#13447 - 02/19/06 02:06 PM Re: Cecil envy
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Wood, Thanks for that bit of information. Do you have any idea what type of vegetation is prevalent where the scuds are abundant? If you do not know would you please make it a point this summer to take some photos for me of the weed types where a lot of the scuds are living? I have been trying to get scuds established without much luck. I think the type of submerged vegetation is key for their success.
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#13448 - 02/19/06 02:35 PM Re: Cecil envy
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Bill, Have you been transplanting scuds from nearby waters? I've thought about doing the same thing for my perch. FWIW, the biggest wild perch I've ever caught came from natural Nebraska lakes that were absolutely littered with scuds. I'd like to see them in my perch pond. Seems like it would be a good primary consumer to move biomass up to predators. Ideal in the respect that they will eat decaying plant and animal matter, and grow large enough to be of interest to adult perch. Also it seems likely their escape mechanism isn't as good as FHM.
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#13449 - 02/19/06 02:37 PM Re: Cecil envy
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Is a scud a fish or an insect?
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#13450 - 02/19/06 02:48 PM Re: Cecil envy
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Neither - it is an amphipod - Order Amphipoda. Also see DD1's comment below.

Bruce, I do not have a local source for them. If I had a local source, I would know what type of weeds were present where the scuds were thriving. I have been buying mine from Wildlife Nurseries Inc, but this year I may get some from Colorado Fisheries. I was trying to establish them in my perch-SMB pond. I got freshwater shrimp to thrive I figured I could get scuds to survive, but not much succes after three tries. I have drained that pond and will convert it to a minnow/shiner and invertebrate pond for stocking supplies. I would like to know the best vegetation for the sucds. Several species are common but the more common and more obvious ones are Gammarus lacustris (22mm) and G. fasciatus (14mm). Crangonyx is another common genus in the US. Hyalella azteca (4-8mm) is widely distributed and real common but not real obvious to the untrained observer.

I think the perch that are "too lazy", will stay eating pellets on a regular basis. I think some swithch back and forth between pellets and natural food based on what is currrently abundant. "Rogue" pellet raised yellow perch revert to eating natural food items. When natual foods are plentiful I think a large percentage of pellet trained fish will go off pellets - these I call rogues. I currently think the more natural foods that are present in a pond the greater the percentage of perch will quite eating pellets and vice versa.

I am still not sure what causes a non-pellet trained and recruited fish to resort to eating pellets on their own. Do some fish have "welfare mentality"?.
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#13451 - 02/19/06 03:16 PM Re: Cecil envy
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Sunil, wasn't a scud a guided missle that the Iraquis used in the first Gulf War?
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#13452 - 02/19/06 03:21 PM Re: Cecil envy
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Dave, that's what I thought which is why I was wondering why Yellow Perch would eat 'em???!!?

Bill, I did a search for amphipods and saw some photos.

Few questions, though: What is the average size of a amphipod common to Ohio/PA? And, besides inspecting the guts of a fish, how can you tell if you have them in a pond?
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Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."


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#13453 - 02/19/06 03:31 PM Re: Cecil envy
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To find out what is living in your pond you need to do some net sweeps. I may write a article about that in PB magazine when I get extra time. Sizes are in my post above. Most common ones will depend on your location and pond type. Without very many weeds or algae don't expect to find many. Most common one in western PA will probably be Hyalella azteca. Locations up near Lake Erie and Ontario could have G. fasciatus. I found G.fasciatus living among filamentous algae and overhanging grass in a local small ditch 1ft-3ft wide.
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#13454 - 02/19/06 04:44 PM Re: Cecil envy
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Bill :

I really hope you do an article on seine surveys, how to do them , what info they provide and how to use it in pond mgt. I do them several times a year and I know Theo does. I think others do but there is very little discussion on the forum about it. It seems like a lot of people should be using the tool but that few are based on the number of "how can I tell what is in my pond" or "how do I know how the fish in my pond are doing" questions.

Folks this is a very good tool to use in pond mgt. , is fun , not that hard to do and the cost is low (most nets are cheap).
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#13455 - 02/19/06 06:56 PM Re: Cecil envy
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Thanks Bill. I see the sizes you had already listed; I had just overlooked them the first read through.
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Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."


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#13456 - 02/19/06 07:01 PM Re: Cecil envy
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One "Get to Know Your Pond's Invertebrates" article per issue, introducing us to a different food (or pest) species, would not be too much.
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#13457 - 02/19/06 07:24 PM Re: Cecil envy
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In reference to Ewest's post (3rd one up) net sweeps are different than seine survey's. Net sweeps are used to collect and sample invertebrates whereas seine surveys are used to sample fish populations. I think Dr Dave and maybe? me as co-author will in the future put together some articles for PBoss about seine surveys and other ways to sample fish in ponds. There are numerous "to do" topics for up coming PBoss articles. I consider Dr Dave as our resident expert of fisheries methods since he co-edited the current standard textbook on Fisheries Techniques/Methods. I plan and hope to build a homemade fish sampling net/trap this spring and if it works I will write about it in Pond Boss mag. I have lots of projects to do but not enough time to do them. I will have to set priorities. Taking care of two ponds plus fish cages keeps me busy in my spare time. If I wasn't addicted to this forum I would get a lot more things done. \:\)
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#13458 - 02/19/06 08:09 PM Re: Cecil envy
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Back to the topic of Bruce's rubbermaid Yperch and in reference to Bruce's Feb 18 11:49PM and Cecil's next response Feb 19 12:05AM posts:quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bruce Condello:
So what's the real scoop, Cecil? If my Rubbermaid perch go into my recreation pond this spring, would you feed them floating, sinking, or slow sinking pellets? They are going to be in with only bluegill and redears. No grass carp or largemouth to intimidate them!

...and what % protein?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cecil Said:
Floating definitely. Too easy to waste sinking feed and have it cause algae problems etc on the bottom.

However you may want to consider feeding them in a large floating cage to keep them on feed exclusively a little longer. Just a thought. What do you think Bill? (Bill Cody)

_________________________________________________

Bruce here are some of my thoughts about your rubbermaid YP.
1. Cecil and I have not had real good success with gettng RAS fish (tank raised) to immediately and aggressively accept pellets once they have been released into the open pond enviornment. These Perch and bgill will continue to eat pellets but aggressiveness seems to be reduced, sometimes dramatically depending on ???. Currently I am not sure of the reasons why, but I have a couple theories; light intensity-day length adjustment, confinement vs open expansive mentality, crowding-density factors, plus other unknowns. Cecil's suggestion of putting them in a cage first to acclimate them before release into the pond is what I also suggest. Cage would allow behavioral and adaptational adjustments before release. If you do not have a cage, then just release them into the pond and then document the results. Companion and competitive bgill & RES in the pond might instill normal feeding behavior.?? Example. I have a neighbor who bought two batches of RAS YP (6"-8") in spring of 2004 & 2005. These YP still do not feed normally compared to those where another owner bought pond raised females (YP) and they began feeding normally within 1 wk. Both groups seem to be growing OK, but the RAS fish seem to be somewhat lagging in growth. I will keep an eye on both groups. Owners were planning on sampling/harvest of both of these YP populations by ice fishing but not much ice this winter.

2. I also would use floating feed primarily to monitor the consumption. I do use soft sinking feed and especially when water temps are below 55F and fish are hesitant to feed at the surface. Example. Last week when water (39F) was open and the day temp was nice, I fed soften pellets to perch who were active, however I did not see any of the male bgill who are dominant feeders when water temps are above 54F.

3. For YP if I had choices, I would use 42%-45% protein and 10% fat or better yet 8% fat content. However you could have a hard time finding that type of feed.

4. Ohio Center for Aquaculture Development is currently working on a genetic improvement program funded by soft money for YP similar to what you are doing for bgill. Eight strains of YP were obtained from different states and genotyped. Best performing starins were identifed. Generation F1 improved broodfish will be availble for producers 2006-2007. 2nd generation broodstock has been selected. Improved YP are expecteed to increase production in market sized fish by 35%-50%. (They are also are working on development of genetically male bgills using 3 separate strains.)
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#13459 - 02/19/06 08:46 PM Re: Cecil envy
Bruce Condello Offline
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That's incredibly fascinating. It looks like my project will be unique. Could I not stock 25 perch directly and place 25 in a cage of similar sizes? I could document differences in growth through one growing season.
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#13460 - 02/19/06 09:28 PM Re: Cecil envy
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Bruce - yes that is an OK idea. Keep the 25 in the cage until you are satisfied they are eating well. Note if their feeding bahavior changes between the indoor tank and the outdoor location; it should if they behave like Cecil's and my perch.
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#13461 - 02/19/06 09:43 PM Re: Cecil envy
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Bruce by now you should have a ton of info on food and feeding (all types and kinds) of YP in RAS and small ponds , here or by email. Included is all female population info .
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#13462 - 02/19/06 09:51 PM Re: Cecil envy
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ewest: The information you've sent me will be very helpful in keeping my Rubbermaid Po'Boy RAS perch alive, helping me ID by sex at stocking time, and growing the biggest possible perch in the horizontal aeration pond.

Thank you very, very much for all of the valuable help. I've already read the studies you sent me twice. \:\)
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#13463 - 02/20/06 08:45 AM Re: Cecil envy
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Bill, I collect them in winter by drilling holes with the power auger in weed beds. When you pull the rotating auger out of the hole it floods the ice with thousands of them. I kept a number of them alive in a cooler for a few months, used an aquarium pump and airstone. I read somewhere that they require water with high calcium content to assist in molting and re-growth of shell.

I have an old fishless dugout on the farm I am living at now that is used for watering buffalo, it is loaded with scuds. I will drill some holes and pull up some vegetation, probably with scuds attached and post the photos.

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#13464 - 02/20/06 11:07 AM Re: Cecil envy
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We need a 'sponge' gremlin. This is good stuff.
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#13465 - 02/26/06 04:38 PM Re: Cecil envy
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Thanks to Theo, I've been forced to expand the Cecil Envy project! His threat to feed train redear sunfish has forced me into accelerating my efforts, and adding an additional tank in which to place redear sunfish. I'll be using the "Lusk method" of training redears by starting with real invertebrates, gradually adding in pellet material, and ultimately having a group of savage RES to add to the horizontal aeration pond. Here's the pictures.











Notice the use of the rafters to increase the temperature of the tanks to maximize RES growth this summer.

Now I just need some RES.
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#13466 - 02/26/06 06:23 PM Re: Cecil envy
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Looks like a "double, double, toil and trouble, fire burn , cauldron bubble " witches brew to me. \:D :p

Go RES go !!! \:\)
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#13467 - 02/26/06 07:37 PM Re: Cecil envy
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Bruce what is the maximum size of pellets that the small hanging feeder you have will dispense?
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#13468 - 02/26/06 07:56 PM Re: Cecil envy
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I can go all the way up to 7.5 mm because the base is adjustable. There are three screws that are loosened to increase the gap between the base and the clear acrylic cylinder that makes up the sides of the feeder.
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#13469 - 02/26/06 08:39 PM Re: Cecil envy
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Note the concrete blocks underneath the tubs, added to save Bruce's back while cleaning them.

Somewhere in Lincoln, there's a car setting on the ground.
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#13470 - 02/26/06 08:47 PM Re: Cecil envy
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Bill, here it is.
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