Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Creating habitat Creating Smallmouth Beds

Hey all;

There is a great thread detailing how to create smallmouth beds I would like to employ this Fall. I can't seem to find it [surprise - I need a lesson from Brettski on how to use the advanced search options] - so I offer my apologies up front - yet again! Can anyone tip me off where it is, and most importantly, what they entered in the archive search to find it? I went to Creating Habitat and entered Smallmouth beds and several other iterations and got nuthin.

Secondly - for anyone who may know [Herr Gallus, Mr. Baird?] I have the following questions regarding the creation of smallmouth beds:

1. I have a four acre pond and will be stocking around 200-300 SMB next Spring/Summer. I know I need to keep beds no deeper than 8', but how many should I construct if I want to aggressively promote recruitment based on a pond this size and the number of fish I'll be stocking? 5, 10, 20...Is there a formula?

2. Depending on the size of the bed, would more than one spawning pair share a bed [say 3' diameter VS 6']?

3. I also have a half acre pond dedicated to SMB reproduction. I was thinking of using 4' diameter 10" high kiddie wading pools filled with pea sized gravel. Anyone have any experience on whether this will successfully serve as a SMB bed?

As ever, thanks in advance guys.

TJ

Do you mean SMB Spawning Bed Preparation from the Archives? I just kind of looked for it by name.

1. I built 25 for 1/2 acre. Dr. Perca says that is many more than I needed. I wouldn't build over 50 for 4 acres.

2. I think it's one SMB male per bed.

3. If you place some rocks and some logs near the kiddie pools, I bet it would work.

Elementary, my dear TJ....you must be able to speak Ewest-ese. Once one masters speaking Ewest-ese, you will have the associative understanding of how specific words relate to all things fishing. For instance, if you were to search "Wowe", you would go directly to one of his better SMB bed construction posts.
Results for Wowe

Here I mined some of the data for you from Theo's SMB nesting archive and its predecessors. Wowe B'ski.

http://www.helpourfisheries.com/how_to_build_a_nest.htm

Dave Willis
First, back to those KS ponds and the feed tubs with rock/gravel. I guess that I honestly wasn’t there long enough (only about 6 years) to really know if they were needed to get smallmouth bass reproduction. The biologist who told me about that “trick” is one of the best biologists I know, even to this day. He clearly said and clearly meant that the smallies would not reproduce successfully without some rock habitat and that he had to add the tubs.

Now, having said that, all of my smallmouth ponds in South Dakota have PLENTY of reproduction – in fact, nearly all of them require management to reduce smallmouth bass numbers, or they overpopulate and stunt. That includes sand and gravel pits where you would expect them to reproduce, and “hill ponds” that have very little rock. So, I honestly don’t know why those KS guys were convinced they had to add the rock baskets. Smallmouth bass must like them, as that is how our state hatchery guys get the smallies to spawn in raceways. However, do you need the rock to get them to reproduce? I don’t know for certain, and based on observations by some other folks up your direction, maybe not.

I think Brett should add the rock just for diversity of habitat. He’s obviously having fun, and diversity in habitat is good. Small, black, fingerling smallmouth bass (still less than an inch long) can be found in rocky, nearshore habitat after the male is no longer guarding the brood. They get very shallow as they try to escape predators, they are stark black and very visible, and they are easy and fun to observe in the pond. Do they need the rock? Maybe not. Do they use it if it is present? Yes! The same thing is true for adult smallmouth bass. They may not need rock, but if it is available you can bet they will be there. The rock can make great fishing attractors. I’m just brainstorming here, but why not run some rock from the shoreline down to about 6 feet depth in a few locations. Also, for an attractor for adult fish, why not make some small underwater islands or at least “humps.” I’m with Bill on making several separated patches of rock. Stack the rock deep enough (thick enough layer) so that it doesn’t disappear into soft substrate. Plus, get some height (3-d is always good for fish habitat).

I really liked the picture of the rock you showed. The more of it that reaches basketball size, they better. I wouldn’t fool with just gravel – get some bigger rock. I like the rock in the picture because the smaller rocks and gravel may fill in nicely between the bigger rocks when you make a pile or a strip.

I am not a big fan of grass carp in many situations. However, I have stocked them into smallmouth ponds just because the vegetation is not necessary for the smallies. So, the advice on low density grass carp stockings seems good to me.

As I said, we can’t get our smallmouths to quit reproducing, with or without rock. However, I have heard other southern pond folks say that reproduction is NOT a sure thing down in the southeast. So, we may have a latitudinal or temperature thing happening here. Regardless, if Brettski is having fun with his aquascaping, and cost is not a huge concern, I’d say go for it!

ewest with comments by Bill Cody

Points from the studies below which come from the AFS symposium on Black Bass 2000.

Habitat Features Affecting Smallmouth Bass Micropterus dolomieu Nesting Success in Four Northern Wisconsin Lakes

and

Habitat Selection of Nesting Smallmouth Bass Micropterus dolomieu in Two North Temperate Lakes

Much of the info is from the same set of data collection but the first study involves more lakes. These are small Lakes – a few hundred acres. My interpretation or paraphrasing unless quotes. I will start with a few points and will add more and I hope Bill will also as he can use the edit the post function.

Rock (gravel to boulders) matters wrt nesting.

Near by wood matters also.

“Variables associated with nest protection increased the probability of predicting nest presence. Previous studies had documented and described smallmouth bass nesting in gravel and cobble substrates, and near boulders , fish cribs and other types of cover…. Wood cover, which bass use for nest protection, can increase survival of swim-up fry.”

Stay away from silt areas as they are the least likely area for selection – silt which = silt washing in on eggs does not work.

“The placement of fish cribs and large logs near coarse substrates … offered additional cover for nesting male smallmouth bass ,whereas those placed in silt and sand areas were not used”

Nests in water depths from .1m to 3m. Depth not a significant selection variable but important and may be significant in fry survival. Water clarity is important. Deeper depths are used but did not have the necessary rock cover in these lakes. ERIC, DO THE ARTICLES MENTION A VISIBILITY RANGE AS OPTIMUM? CODY NOTE - SINCE CLEAR WATER APPEARS TO BE BENEFICIAL TO FRY SURVIVAL, THE STOCKING OF CATFISH OR ANOTHER SEDIMENT ORIENTED ORGANISM (CRAYFISH OVERPOPULATION) COULD BE DETRIMENTAL BY PRODUCING MORE TURBID CONDITIONS. A FEW CATFISH STOCKED INITIALLY MAY NOT BE A PROBLEM UNLESS THEY REPRODUCE AND CAUSE CC DENSITIES TO INCREASE HIGHER THAN THOSE STOCKED. I SUSPECT OR CURENTLY THINK THAT IN MANY UNFERTILIZED PONDS WITH TRANSPARIENCIES OF 16"-28", THE CLOUDINESS IS PRIMARILY (GREATEST %) DUE TO SUSPENDED SEDIMENT AND DETRITUS AND NOT A PHYTOPLANKTON BLOOM. MORE ON THIS TOPIC LATER, HOPEFULLY IN 2007.

Distance from shore did not matter wrt selection but may well be important for fry survival. Avoid wavy near shore areas as it stirs up silt and washes eggs about.

Most likely sites selected were near shore , non silt , in water .5 to 3m, near wood ( cribs where available) and larger rocks where nest substrate consisted of gravel/rock where 40% of the particles were 6.4 to 149 mm in diameter ( .27 to 5.9 inches). In a 1m squared area . Coarse rock helped survival of eggs probably because of better O2 and less fungus.

Survival of eggs/fry was effected by habitat features. Distance to cover from nest , diameter of nearest log cover and rock size and nest position were all factors.

Will mine some more data later.


Brettski add some of that mixed rock and a few logs/boards to that crib area.

Theo's SMB beds - log added later



Here are the SMB bed areas, with root balls, on the North side



Actual SMB bedding

Darn, you guys are GOOD, and FAST. This is EXACTLY what I needed. This forum is such a well oiled machine...thanks guys. I deeply appreciate your help!

TJ

TJ -- I can't add anything at this point!! Just a short time delay in getting your PM, and look -- these guys fill in all the details!

Great, now I want to get some Scuba gear for my pond.

Guess everyone in the forum now has a free pass to my spread...least I can do whenever anyone is passing thru Nebraska - fire me up and let's wet a line.

Brettski - reading those old threads when you were a wee-lunker like myself - am curious if you:

Got any YP reproduction from your pvc trees?
Any Smallmouth reproduction?
Did you end up doing business with the hatcheries manager who accidently almost stocked your pond with BG?

Inquiring minds....

Thanks all!!

TJ

Upon reviewing that post....before Brettski jumps on it, I realize offering a "free pass to my spread" might be a less than enticing offer. Allow me to rephrase: "...a free pass to fish on the Hudson property."

whew.

I jumped, pounced, posted, regretted, deleted. The entire cycle took 12 minutes. I'm gettin' better at it.

The only sampling so far has been the minnow trap (3 YOY RES from the fingerlings stocked May '07) and I often see 6 - 7" RES suspended in the water over the concrete boat launch. A couple weeks ago, I saw some mini torpedoes (about 8" long) hanging with the RES at the launch. I saw no bars and the experts believe these to be the SMB that were stocked May '08 at 4-5". I don't expect a SMB spawn until next year, and that will be predicated on them digging the rock zones I placed to enhance the romance. Sunil talked me into purchasing polarized sunglasses; something about being able to see the males get gill. I did see a substantial school of YP fingerlings a few weeks ago; once again, hanging out at the launch (the YP were stocked May '07 as 5") This assures me that there was a YP spawn this past spring.
Past that, nothing further.
I don't have any idea what level of success the PVC trees have provided. If you are asking regarding their use to drape YP egg strands, we have plenty of vegetation at the perimeter that they could have used. Also, we allowed an area of about 1/4 acre is shallow, flooded timber/weeds/bushes. If the PVC trees didn't interest them, they should be thrilled by the natural stuff.
-
We did end up using the same guy for our stocking. His background and trustworthiness is solid. That, and I really didn't have alot of choice.

Ahhh, well done Grasshopper. You have snatched the pebble from the master's hand.

Oh and as an also and besides, make sure Brettski never gets a photo of you. Trust me on this.

...by the way TJ. What's your favorite Hostess snack cake?

Great stuff Brettski...sounds a lot like what I'll have in terms of habitat for my larger pond. Although in NE I'll be lucky to have any YP spawns - I'll simply hope for the best and restock every few years.

BTW on my seeding project - kicked it off today:

1.08 Ac of straw mats
200 lbs of Brome, Fescue, Perennial Rye, Red Wheat and Oats.
$6,000.00 [about 40% less than most quotes]
Grass that expensive ought to have dual purposes....I jest!

Irrigation for the four ponds going in next week.

Begin Smallmouth habitat and beds this week. Now that ought to be a blast.

Brettski did you get your guys to just dump several tons at your place and move them with your loader as you felt the urge?

I'm not certain I should address this question.

Sage advice, Sensei.

My pondsite had virtually "zero" rocks. Clay up the Y-Y...no rox. I trucked in about 45 - 50 tons of what the gravel pit calls "oversize". It's basically landscaping river rock that was too large to qualify. It goes from fist sized to volleyballs. I brought it in on a tri-axle truck that can haul about 22 tons....2 loads (plus some left over from another job). It might sound like alot...it ain't. A decent driver can split the load into 1/4's or 1/5's. The key, as well you imagine, is to do this work well before the water arrives. Also, it's gotta be done when the ground is firm and dry. Drivers can back down into questionable terra-firma with great care, but if there is any inkling that they might not get out, there's only one action: dump the entire load right now. That's NOT the plan. Dump a little pile here, move over 15 feet and dump a little pile here...blah, blah. Use the front end loader to spread it out and push it further down the slope.
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I did not take (nor have) the time allocated to make the fancy beds that Theo did (unless, of course, you consider my mad, scientific polyvinylphibian saucer project). One thing I did do that I think/hope will yield nice returns is to dump a bunch around our covered dock so I can look over the edge and practice aqua-voyeurism (another suggestion I got from Sunil's book).

Wow...that is really gonna be quite the undertaking. I can't wait to see the pics of the project. Where did you wind up purchasing the straw mats? Can we ask the cost per sq yard? Who is slated to perform the installation of the different phases. And...who/how are you going to prepare the soil for seed bedding?

I needed to significantly grade everything due to some major rains we had right after the dam was constructed in June. Considering the fact the grading couldn't be done with an ATV and that I've got over an acre to staple by myself, I thought it better to hire out.

I priced 112 x 16 mats for around $40 from erosion control wholesaler in Omaha - if I ever have additional areas to hit I can do so then.

Soil preparation: Grading - seed - starter fertilzer - mat. I was hoping to convince them to bring some black topsoil but was not successful considering their quotes were almost half of the other firms.

I'll let you know in about three weeks how things are looking [hopefully green] - but I'm not feeling 100% confident in my decisions to:

1. hire it out
2. going for the lowest bid

Neither do I typically elect to do.

Let's hope for some well timed gentle rains and lots of warmth and sunshine and no early hard frosts....

Good stuff here - thanks Brettski. I too have nothing but clay -and just as they finished the core trench we got a 3.5" rain event and it filled about 8' of my pond. Loved the rain, hated the timing.

SO....good news is: Dam holds, banks are saturated and evaporation has had very minor effect which is great considering I'll be pumping to keep it full during dry stretches.
Bad News: Was not able to create the humps or other structure elements I wanted to on the main pond. I do have another 10' to full pool, and will be left to create habitat in that zone apart from sinking some PVC globes or other sinkable structure in the main lake if I choose to do so.

I can still get to work on the smallmouth beds - Theo recommended around 50 for a 4 acre structure. I have two areas specifically designed for BG and YP reproduction that will always be around 4-6' and vegetated.

I'm thinking I'll have about 25 tons delivered and see where that gets me. Problem is I'm going to have to move this things around with a loader. Could be a long Fall and Winter activity.

Sunil has a book? I would benefit from it I'm certain. Never had any dialogue with him but I'm a fan admiring from afar...let me know how to pick one up, and thanks Brettski.

Thanks Theo - I'll try to make ye proud.

This is a great place Tell your friends

Otto

Careful what you offer TJ...some of us locals might just take you up on the chance to fish the Hudson property once that pond is loaded with SMB.

Hello boys;

Couple of updates I feel compelled to share:

Erosion mat down on steep slopes - sowed red winter wheat, fescue, rye, and oats. Not a drop of rain for 10 days, and saw a very few fescue/rye blades popping and a little better amount of oats. Just received about 2" of precip over the past five days - I'm holding out for some warmer days to get the soil temps in the mid 60's...we'll see.

Sourcing and pricing rock currently for smallmouth beds and general structure. I've been VERY impressed with Theo and Brettski's plans - they've served as a standard I hope to achieve. Looking at the following:

1-3" River Rock for the bed [5 tons]
4-8" Granite Cobbles for the bed "ring" [5 tons]
8"+ Granite Boulders for general structure/piles [4 tons]

Question for the sages: I have a source for limestone - can get it nearly free with the exception of a delivery fee which has it's evident advantages $$ wise. I think I know that Granite would last FAR longer than Limestone - based on the physical properties....so my struggle now is:

1. How long would anyone guess Limestone would hold up VS. Granite?

2. Would anyone harbor reservations about how Limestone could affect the PH balance if one dumps 15-20 tons into a pond?

3. Any other issues I should consider when choosing Granite vs. Limestone?

Another update: Have 400 YOY Condello BG, 400 4-6" YP, 50 6" Condello HSB, 600 FH & GS that have already dropped eggs once I think.

That's plenty to digest - as ever, I appreciate your feedback in advance! Thanks guys.

TJ

Not a problem - you should PM me, exchange contact info and we can walk the spread one of these days. Always open to find compatriots locally. You'll like my main 4 ac pond, but also might enjoy the other three dedicated to some very top secret and devious Condello/Hudson strategies!!!

TJ