Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Triploid Grass Carp???

Hi everyone! I'm a new member to the forum, but have been reading posts for a few months now. They are extremely informative!

I have a new 1/3 acre pond that was built in april and just recently filled up thanks to the past two hurricanes. I just made my first order of Copper Nose Blue Gill, Channel Cat, and Fat Head Minnows. In the early sping, I plan on adding Florida stain bass. My question is about triploid grass carp though. I talked to the Louisiana Department of Wildlife and fisheries, but didn't get much information other than I need a permit for the fish. Before I pay for the permit, what are the pros and cons of stocking a couple grass carp in my pond? Being a new pond, there is not a weed/grass problem yet. However, would it be a good idea to get a couple carp right now for sort of a preventative maintenace? Any other information on the grass carp will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Limb Bream,

Speaking as a windshield ( ), yes it is far better to prevent a problem from ever happening than to try to recover from one.

GC are a good example of that. If you have read other posts herein and/or talked to fish pros, you will generally be exposed to the wait 'till you have a problem and then stock 10 to 15 GC per acre.

I've had neighbors follow that advice and they end up with a pond full of hungry fat GC, no vegetation for fish protection/rearing, muddy water, and basically no easy way to get rid of the GC.

This is what I have found to be effective...stock two per acre before the problem happens and rotate them out every three years with young replacements. In a 1/3 acre pond, I would start with only one GC and watch what happens. If you see weeds begin to grow/expand add another one (but I doubt you will need to), if not just sit tight and replace it in three years. One other tidbit of experience with GC, they love to escape through a spillway or flowing water. To prevent this, you need to have a fish gate in place at points where water exits your pond.

The GC is very useful for vegetation control and when used in low numbers to prevent/control weeds are a great tool for the pond meister.

Howdy, LB:

Ther are many threads here on GC. Look in the "Aquatic Vegetation" sections, especially "Controlling Unwanted Plants."

You may want to wait until next year, do a little thinking and research. Are there any ponds nearby with/without GC that could give you an idea on how much plant life to expect (no gaurantees your pond will be the same, but maybe a rough guess)? What are your goals, and how does that affect how much vegetation you desire and are willing to tolerate? (Swimming hole - you probably want it pretty clean. Big bream pond - you may want to hold vegetation down to help predators eliminate BG, holding the numbers down to help growth. Big bass - you want a certain amount of cover - how much to you want to be plants, how much artificial?). Also research the threads on what plants GC eat and don't eat; compare this with any aesthetic wishes you have wrt plants (water lilies, etc.).

Like ML said, you don't want too many GC. One at a time is likely to be plenty in 1/3 acre. However, I would be much less afraid of getting behind the weeds and having to play catch up with extra GC with a small pond than with a multi-acre one - even a high density of GC for you would be maybe a half a dozen, which should be easy to reduce if desired.

Since we are talking about GC, I have a few questions. Are there any noticable differences between triploids and diploids? Is one type better at consuming aquatic weeds vs. the other? In NE triploids used to be the rule, diploids are now allowed and I would be curious to know if the recommended stocking rates would be different between the two. Also, would there be any possibilty of diploids reproducing on their own if enough current was present?

Shorty,

Although this does not directly answer your questions, it may be of interest to some to understand what constitutes a "triploid". I copied the below info from the link that Gumboot posted today:

"To produce a triploid grass carp, an egg must retain its first polar body, which is normally shed. A variety of methods — including electrical shock — are employed in this process. Everyone reading this is a diploid — half our chromosomes from our mother, half from our father. But by retaining the first polar body, the fish egg will retain two sets of the mother's chromosomes and one from the father, thus making it a triploid. The only reason that's worth noting is that triploids can't reproduce."

We can't legally have dipolid GC in Texas, but it would seem they would have the same general eating characteristics as a triploid, but be capable of reproduction.

That last several stockings of GC in our pond have been diploids. The reason I asked about their ability to reproduce has to do with some large cleared out areas I saw last week that look like a spawning beds, 3-4 feet across, in shallow water, very near to where our GC's prefer to hang out. To my knowlege our LMBs, BGs, and CC's shouldn't be doing any of this right now. With the wind we have here in NE combined with cedar tree lines on the north and south sides of our pond there is usually a weak counter clockwise current in the pond when the wind blows. I do know that our CC have successful spawned before so it makes me wonder if could be possible for the diploid GC's to spawn as well. If they do spawn it will definately put a twist in our weed management program. Maintaining a proper balance of aquatic weeds has been very healthy for our pond, having all of the weeds suddenly dissappear would throw the fish population way out of balance. I have heard some hearsay that diploids typically do a better job of eating vegetaion than triploids.

Dang, SHORTY, I don't want to be alarmist, but the prospect of having GC denude that pond would worry me. From your past descriptions it sounds like a wonderful place.

Do you have a plan to control them, if indeed they are reproducing?

I'm a very good shot with a bow and arrow, in fact I shot a big doe last Saturday and put some meat in the freezer. I can usually get within 20-30 ft of the GC's while I'm out fishing so removing some with a bow or gun should not be a problem. I will probaly rotate some of the larger GC's out next summer, I saw one 4 footer last week.

I was just curious if anyone knew if diploids can reproduce in a pond, and if so, what time of year do they normally spawn? My understanding is that both GC's and CC's need current to pull off a spawn. At the moment I'm not to worried about it, any young GC's would have to run the LMB guanlet in order to survive. The oddity effect in predation does not bode well for any unusual fish in the pond.

Shorty -- I know of no situations where diploid grass carp were able to spawn in ponds. As you indicated, they need current. Unlike its cousin the common carp, grass carp are a big river fish. Grass carp eggs are nearly neutral buoyancy, and need to float downstream as they develop prior to hatching. Common carp, which certainly can spawn in ponds, have heavy and sticky eggs. So, if the grass carp are eating "holes" in your vegetation, it probably is just from feeding. They certainly are not nest spawners. Hope this helps -- I think you knew most of this already.

Thanks Dave! My grass carp info is a little more sketchy than than my LMB & BG info. I was not aware that they were not nest spawners, I did know about the need for current. (I also know about the set of molars they have in the back of their throats too.) What I saw last week really looked like spawning beds rather than just "holes" in the vegatation, there are "holes" in the vegetation in lots of places, none of them are completely cleared out of all vegetation, there is usually filmentous algea in them, these ones even had a slight depression to them, they reminded me of a very large LMB bed with old bleached snail shells semi-uncovered in the soil. The bleached snail shells are something we normally don't see unless something has been fanning the area out to spawn in the springtime, thus my curious question about the possibilty.

Thanks for the replies Theo and Meadowlark. I'll keep both of your opinions in mind to help me make a decision. I have one other question though. Both of you said that it would be easy to reduce the GC numbers or remove them from my pond if I ever needed to. What's the best way to do this? Can you catch them on a rod and reel? I'm not an excellent shot with the bow like Shorty is, so that's out of the question. Thanks again.

This forum is great!

LB,

On the contrary, I don't think they are that easy to remove...it was Theo who said that, but I think his point was well taken in that in a small pond like yours, there aren't many places the GC can hide.

They are very difficult to catch on anything, being they are veggies. They are also very shy, so that in larger ponds, they will hide from you. SHORTY sounds like a hunter and that's what you need to get them in larger ponds because they are very spooky. Great eating, also

LB, I have never fished for GC but I have heard they can be caught on cherry tomatoes. I have also heard that in Japan they cut up and use asian pears as bait for catching GC. ML is right, they are a very spooky fish, you get too close and they "take off like a SAM rocket".

I've caught one with a nightcrawler. My wife hooked our last one recently on a nightcrawler. It was over 3 ft. long and she certainly didn't land it. Loosen your drag somewhat. Heck, we were BG fishing both times.

LB:

My thoughts on reducing GC numbers (which I think are roughly in tune to the general consensus) is that you can reduce them by 1 or 2 a year, with a concentrated but not herculean effort. Since I foresee you want 1 , maybe 2, 3 at most GC; such a small reduction would be significant in your pond.

GC can be caught on hook and line (I have hooked GC on mealworms 7 or 8 times this year, managing to land 1), bow-fished, or taken with firearms (I had 2 of them 2 feet from me, eating pellets next to the dock I was laying on). But their learned caution would, I believe, make it hard to take more than one (every year or so) by any of these methods (they have not taken a mealworm as bait since I caught the one).

I did not mean it was easy to reduce GC numbers - there are several folks who have too many and are struggling to cut the numbers. But in a small pond, getting 1 or 2 out should probably be all the reduction you'd ever need.

I never considered a firearm, but I'm sure that will work just fine for me if I ever have to reduce their numbers. Good idea. Thanks Theo.

Triploids behave the same as diploids. They act the same, look the same, they are the same, except they are genetically altered. In order to change them, they start as diploids.
The reason they clear out certain areas is because they don't 'mow' evenly. If undisturbed, grass carp will stay in one spot, munching, munching, until they form a hole. Then, something typically spooks them, they run off, set up the buffet table somewhere else, and munch on.
Not only do they need moving water for eggs to hatch, they need the 'perfect' food as babies, too.

Interesting information. Thanks BL!