Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Georgia Giant Growth Rates

Firstly, Deb I want to thank you for your participation in this forum. I think the position or philosophy of “Ken’s Hatchery” needed to be presented first hand. Welcome.

Please bear with me as my first question led to related secondary questions.

Since I have a pretty old catalog (1980’s), I know Georgia Giant hyb-bgill have been around for numerous years.

1. When were they first sold to the public?

2. In a previous post you mentioned the hatchery conducts research and development, quote- "We spend so much time in research and development......". Has the hatchery or anyone else conducted and DOCUMENTED, replicated, annual growth rate studies during the typical life span of these fish? In other words are there additional or other documented growth rates over a several year period of the Georgia Giants besides the monster 5 lb GG that has been set as a standard or goal that is shown on the Website and in the catalog? (I have not seen a recent catalog.) I assume, but maybe incorrectly, that no facility outside the hatchery has published these types of data because if data were available it would be advertised or promoted. Since you mentioned in a previous post that the hatchery conducts research and development, I think long term growth studies that document normal, annual growth over a several year period should be a basic part of one’s "research" activities.

The recent research study by WVA State College (AMJA, 2004. 66:312-318) that measured growth rates and protein diets of hybrid bluegills (sunfish) was conducted for just or only 12 weeks with fish initially sized at average of 33-34g pg.315, (3”?). I am interested in the long term or life span growth rates that have been documented or recorded on an annual basis for the GG hybrid. Many fish have been shown to have rapid, early growth rates, however, when sexual maturity occurs the growth rate significantly decreases. Does the hatchery have proof that the growth rates of GG hybrids continues to outpace or exceed the growth rates other well fed hybrid sunfish or high quality of pure strain bgill? Once maturity occurs growth rates can change or be variable depending on species and existing conditions. As you probably know, growth rates after maturity are an important part of developing a trophy fishery.

As a related subquestion, 1A. Does the hatchery have any documented growth rates for GG’s that were raised in Ken’s floating raceways? I am especially interested the variability of growth rates among individuals of a specific batch or spawn.

2. With optimum or near optimum conditions what is the typical maximum size of GG’s and at what age?

3. What is the typical life span of these fish? What are sizes of these fish (GG) when they are dying of old age at your hatchery? Any records and or photos?

4. After the initial stocking (see below, Ken's guidelines), what is the hatchery’s recommended annual or supplemental fish stocking or purchased NON-FISH additions for a pond during the duration of the typical F1, GG growth-life cycle to maintain best growth? If no post-stocking needs to occur, then are the GG’s expected to grow optimally by feeding primarily on the pond’s existing forage items and pelleted fish food?
Year 1 and number per acre: 3000 GG
600 channel cats
5000 gambusia minnows
600 large mouth OR 600-1000 smallmouth (6 months to 1 year later)
1 Aqaurius aerator
1 Bug-O-Matic Feeder
1 Automatic feeder (38% protein/22%fish meal pellets)
1 quart ocean blue pond dye (per acre 4 foot deep)

This part or subsection relates back to my basic question in part one above and I ask it because: After initial stocking, what is the annual NORMAL standard of growth rate of the GG’s (growth rate base line) so one can compare the growth of their GG fish or other sunfish with some sort of realistic standard GG growth rate? I think that the world class 5 pound GG depicted on the website is not going to be the standard, typical or normal GG growth that one can expect from these fish.

5. I suspect that many of your clients stock the GG into ponds that range in size from 0.2 – 1.0 acre. Are there exceptions or changes in the recommended stocking rates or management methods when the GG’s are used in different sized ponds if optimum growth rates are desired?.

6. Why do you recommend 38% protein when the West Virginia 2004 study indicated significantly better GG growth was with food containing 42%-44% protein? For optimum growth of most all sport fish, my experiences have also revealed that foods containing 40%+ protein produce better growth results than the lower protein foods, especially when fish are in crowded conditions (such as Ken’s hatchery guidelines), when the natural food chain base is heavily grazed and or when the fish do not have or have very limited access to natural foods (caged, in raceways, or in intensive recirculating systems).

7. Do the GG F1 hybrids display sexual dimorphism? The reason I asked about the ratio of GG males to females is I was thinking about the possibility of stocking just male fish into small waters or using only male fish as non-problematic bonus fish in mixed or single species ponds. Male only fish would eliminate the necessity of stocking predators to control subsequent additions of substandard offspring.

Thank you for the warm welcome!

I will do what I can to answer but guessing is not something I will do. I have only been with Ken for two years, so I will easily acknowledge to not having near the experience or knowledge of you all (or even Ken for that matter). That is why I am so glad ML invited us to this forum. All be it I have read so many past posts that things are starting to run together. Regardless, give me a chance to gather the info that you have requested. They are good questions, and some that I too should be asking (or have had asked previously). Sometimes there are not enough hours in the day. We are not the “huge” company everyone makes us out to be. In fact our town doesn’t even have a caution light, and our office is an old cinder block fish-out house (with restrooms on the outside mind you; like a gas station). I am the only biologist in the office, I dispatch the fish trucks, run the lab (dissections, aging, infections,...), am working on three genetic projects (not all fish), handle a fair share of walk-in customers, keep up with the internet (emails and such), and field an overflow of phone calls. Not to mention my desks are right beside Ken so I am constantly answering questions from him. Then after 9 hours there I drive to my second job as a single mother of an extremely intelligent but wildly active 2 ½ year old. I only tell you all of this so that you will understand if it takes me awhile to gather the info you requested

Bream 2-3 pounds growing in optimum conditions would be average. We have ponds with GG weighing more, as do many of our customers, but an average would be 2-3 lbs.

I would only add minnows, insects, and pellet feed to an original stock. (more giants if the customer got cookout happy and kept out most of the original stock when caught). Keep in mind management on the customers part is very important (aeration, pond dye, ...) Each pond varies with the needs of the customer.

You are correct that “Bubba”, as someone in an earlier thread so eloquently called him, was not the norm. But couldn’t we make it that way? Would it not be wonderful if we could genetically engineer it so that we were getting 4-5 lb. And larger bream? Not a LMB angler’s dream of course, but what about a bream fisher’s dream? That is part of the “research and development” I have mentioned before. We should never be satisfied. To be so is to be bored.

I recommend the 38% as a summer feed. I don’t want to insult your intelligence by telling you how fish feed (based on temperature). You knew this before I was even born. Therefore our “summer” feed (floating pellet) is a 38% protein 22% fish meal combination that Ken developed especially for the bream. Our “winter” feed is a 45% protein (sinking pellet) that has worked wonderful both in our area and in the North where fish don’t want to come up to the ice th “chat” with you.

As far as the sexual dimorphism you mentioned, I would believe this difference (if exhibited) would only be noticed in adults. John is one of our biologists who works out in the ponds daily. He also worked in tandem with the State of Georgia through the Experiment Station for the last twenty years. I will differ this question to him, and get you a knowledgeable answer.
Your idea of a male only stock (with an abundance of minnows, bugs, and high protein feed) would ideally yield some monster bream. Especially without the bass around to compete for food. This is also a possible theory behind why Bubba grew as large as he did. The customers had stocked the pond twenty years prior with GG, cats and bass. They had well over a decade of very good fishing, then stopped catching fish. They figured they had caught everything out of the pond and were planning on selling the property so they never restocked. Eventually the property sold, and when the new owner started draining the pond he found our little “freak”. Apparently Mr. Bubba had the run of the pond for quite awhile (although he was lonely).
I want to further my degree at some point, and you might have just given me a good idea for a thesis (if you don’t jump the gun on me [it was your idea]).

Anyway, I hope this answered a few of your questions, and as for the others I will get you accurate results as soon as I possibly can.

Thank you again for your acceptance of me into what appears to be a neat “boys’ club” . You all have vast amounts of knowledge from all different views and experiences, and I appreciate the time you are taking to teach me and others.

Sincerely,

Deb

Deb - I am from a town very similar in size to the one you describe. I assumed that you are kept very busy on the job and most of your posts have been on your own time. I know very well that this web site can consume a lot of time. Please take your time and to gather the appropriate information. I suspect there is not very much data going to be available or released; we will see.

A bream of 3 pounds is a big bream; even a two pounder is big by comparison to most of the larger sunfishes. (Q1) You say "We have ponds with GG weighing more," do you mean ponds owned by Ken? Are there photos and recorded ages of these fish at 3 lbs or 3+ lbs? (Q2) How long does it take for a GG in your location to get to 3 lbs? Annual growth increments to the 3 lb mark is what my growth questions are all about. The average life span of GG would be good to know. (Q3) Can you figure out from sales records how old "Bubba was?

(Q4) from above, "Additions of minnows to the initial stocking", are these minnows mosquito fish?

I am aware that sexual dimorphism is apparent in mature or very close to mature fish. By all means ask John about recognizing male vs female GG; (Q5)at what size does "maleism" show up, is it only seasonal (breeding) and how accurate can it be? The male pure bgill that some of us have been working with have to be definately older (around 7") before they can be distinguished with accuracy.

If data for growth rate information are not available maybe Ken will allow you to do a study in one of his small hatchery ponds; he should even encourage it! Heck if all ponds are being used, he could dig a new small 0.1 ac pond and put some GG in it for the study, then reuse the pond for other profitable things when study is finished. If you start with a 0.1 ac pond and divide it in half (2 replicates, 0.05ac) that means you would still add 150 GG (3000/ac) to each replicate. That is a lot of fish in a pond 47'x47'(0.05ac, 2209sqft area). OR, a new local customer may let you use their pond for the study, if Ken furnishes the fish for free. Which is a small price to pay for your efforts, the data and benefits that he will get from those initial "at cost" fish. Put your biology background, college education, and learning about scientific method to practical use. Collect some data. The data would be very useful for future sales and promotions at the hatchery.

If hatchery pond space is limited, I don't think you would need any controls or replicates and you wouldn't have to raise other fish for comparison purposes. There are lots of published growth data available for pure bgill and "normal BG hybrids" for you to compare your GG growth results with. The study may even be publishable in an aquaculture newsletter, magazine or secondary journal. Aquaculture people would be very interestd in your results. I will gladly review and edit the final draft of a paper authored by you.

I would think Ken would be very positive for a study like this to occur. Labor would be basically free and "big" numerous long term benefits could result for him. He could even sell the adult fish when the study is finished. I am surprised he or someone else has not already done a study like this. Plus it would give you some good experience if you go back to grad school. There are numerous positives to this idea.

I look forward to whatever else you can provide about the above questions and the GG annual growth rates / life span info.

Bill, I have a question could someone get a Georgia Giant and sent it to a university lab and get a DNA study and find out the "secret formula" for Georgia Giants

Bill, I am not a molecular geneticist, however I did take a college course in molecular genetics. I think your idea could be done, but the lab would also have to have background DNA chromosomal data for all the other sunfishes, so the test fish data could be deciphered. Not a cheap, simple, quick or easy test. I am not sure which organizations have DNA chromosomal plots or DNA baselines for numerous fishes. I do know that Ohio State Univ has done DNA work comparing walleye and blue walleye. Dr Willis or Bruce C. may have some knowledge of this topic. A web search may provide some help.

POSTSCRIPT 10-7-05
Ohio Center for Aquaculture Development (OSU affiliate) has a grant to study growth characteristics of various hybrid sunfish. The study includes GG hybrids. The study is to end in 2007. In this study they may do a DNA testing to verify the parentage of the GG hybrid.

Bill you are great, but will never be a yes or no man. just kidding, thanks for the answer

Bill,
(Q3) Can you figure out from sales records how old "Bubba was? The pond had been stocked twenty years prior with nothing added by a human since.

(Q4) from above, "Additions of minnows to the initial stocking", are these minnows mosquito fish? Yes! I happen to prefer them due to the multipurpose they serve. Do you know something negative about them?

Your knowledge and suggestions have me very intriqued. In fact, given time, I might try to use two small ponds on the farm to conduct some field research. Thank you for your offer to review and edit, but I am not sure it would come back unbiased. Regardless my sister is finishing her doctrate in English from FSU (as well as teaching)as we speak and would love to use the old red pen. But again thank you for the offer, and I would still respect your opinions once having read it. I am talking like it is already done, when I am sure it would take several years to get to where I am headed. But hopefully you can see how excited you have made me!
I will work on the other answers for you!

Thanks again,

Deb

I'll take credit for the "Bubba" moniker.

The picture of this giant sunfish has been the screen saver on my computer for three years so I've always been fascinated by this fish. In a way I've used the photo as the benchmark for what I'd like to achieve someday.

My problem with Mr. Holyoke and his business is that the literature that I've read, all provided by the business has been what I would classify as "scientifically dubious". For his educational credits, Ken has used a surprisingly simplistic approach to explaining the origin of this fish.

Here are my very biased original assumptions that I had before Deb came to our forum.

1. I have never believed, nor do I currently believe that sunfish raised in southern regions can achieve life spans of twenty years. I read the story of how "Bubba" was found and saw the claim of 20 years old. Every scrap of literature I've ever read about bluegill, redears, greenies, etc. indicate that even in northern regions a nine or ten year old sunfish is reaching extremely old age. Could these fish be being bred for extended life span? My knowledge of genetics will not allow me to believe this is possible without using 50+ years of genetic selection. Was a scale sample ever taken? Can't find evidence of this anywhere. Also I've taken scale samples and microscopically aged sunfish for years and old sunfish look "geriatric". Body condition begins to deteriorate. Fins show signs of extreme wear. Wr's plummet. The fish in this picture looks extremely vital to me.

2. If these fish have high growth rates (four times normal) and twenty year life span, and great vitality, why wasn't this fish ten pounds?? I know this is ludicrous, but something just doesn't jive here.

3. Why can we never see a clear photo of a mature younger fish? The photos on the website are of fish far away, and hardly identifiable. And to boot these fish have different markings than "Bubba".

4. If a study was done on growth rates, but only something like twelve week period was used, I don't see how this equates to long term growth trends. Often GS X BG hybrids exhibit rapid early growth but all things being equal, almost all states that have records for purebred BG and for hybrids, the BG record exceeds the hybrid record. Conventional thinking is that hybrids won't have a top end weight any better than the larger of the two parent species. Hybrid aggression, "heterosis", and a big mouth make GS X BG hybrids great early growers but they don't have the same genetic potential as a purebred bluegill.

5. Some of the comments made by proponents of this fish have the clear indication that three or more species of fish are involved. If this is the case, it seems to fly in the face of convention that backcrossing of hybrid fish leads to diminished viability and reproductive potential. Something not quite right here.

Now all of this indicates that either I know a little too much about this stuff, or maybe I don't know nearly enough. Regardless, I've always been suspicious of the Georgia Giant.

Now that I've got that off of my chest, I've been extremely impressed by Deb's knowledge and ability to communicate. I also felt like she'd take a little heat and fold up like a cheap tent. Boy, was I wrong there! She's tough, unafraid and believes in her position. I really like those traits and I'm glad that she's here. Most of all, though, I'd really just like to see a clear picture of a live one. To this point I've only seen clear pictures of the mounts, which are only an artists rendition of what a fish "can" look like. Sure, I can see that the mouth is large....that would certainly help early growth rates. It's frustrating, but fun all at the same time. I'm a centrarchidae fanatic and I want to learn more for selfish reasons. I think it can help me in my program to have enhanced growth rate bluegills. I agree with Bill that it would be sure nice to have some information verified using classic scientific process. If that were the case, the people of this forum would probably spread the word enough to sell millions more of these fish.

Info to consider.

Inherent Growth Capacity and Social Costs of Bluegill and Hybrids of Bluegill and Green Sunfish: Which Fish Really Grows Faster?
R. S. Hayward

Department of Fisheries and Wildlife Sciences, School of Natural Resources, 302 Anheuser-Busch Natural Resources Building, University of Missouri, Columbia, Missouri 65211, USA

H. P. Wang

Fisheries College, Huazhong Agricultural University, Wuchang, Wuhan 430070, China

Abstract.—There is interest in knowing whether the bluegill Lepomis macrochirus or a hybrid of bluegill and green sunfish L. cyanellus (F1: male bluegill × female green sunfish; hereafter called B × G hybrids) can be grown faster to food market size (225–340 g). The predominant view is that the hybrid grows faster. In this study, the inherent growth capacities (IGCs) of age-1 bluegills and B × G hybrids were determined over four successive 25-d periods (May–August 2000) by holding them individually at 22°C and feeding them to apparent satiation three times daily. The hybrid's IGC was greater during period 1 but fell to only 33% of the bluegill's over the three subsequent periods; the consumption and gross growth efficiency (GGE) of the hybrid showed similar declining patterns. The growth-in-weight trajectory of bluegills crossed above that of the hybrids at about 30 g. Gonadosomatic index values suggested that hybrid growth rates declined below those of the bluegill because the former invested more energy in gonads as age-1 fish. A follow-up study, conducted under similar conditions from August 2000 to March 2001, found that individually held age-1 bluegills starting at 30 g reached more than 100 g in 200 d, gaining nearly twice the weight achieved by hybrids of similar starting weight that were reared in parallel. The costs of social interaction in terms of reduced consumption, growth, and GGE were also quantified for bluegills and hybrids by comparing individually held fish with group-held fish over periods 1–3. Social costs reduced the growth rates of grouped bluegills more than those of grouped hybrids over the 75-d period. Our findings indicate that while the IGC was higher for the hybrids as early age-1 fish, the long-term IGC (e.g., to food market weights) is higher for bluegills; however, this result may be obscured, in part, by the bluegill's higher social costs. Reduction of bluegill social costs in certain culture settings should result in growth rates that approach their higher IGC. Also, social costs varied in response to short-term shifts in the IGCs of both fishes, indicating a previously unknown influence on social interactions in fishes.

Received: December 22, 2000; Accepted: August 15, 2001

Deb - The two posts above this one create even more need or impetus to do a growth rate study.

I am not sure why you think my review and edit of your potential growth study would be biased. I have a pretty long list of scientific publications with my name on them as author or coauthor. In fact, a coauthor and I currently have a paper submitted to Diatom Research for publication. I have another paper that I coauthored early this year in the same journal. Bias is something I try very hard to avoid. Once you get to graduate school you will quickly discover that scientific writing is quite different than those works created in english class. My offer for review and edit still stands. If you think I'm a tough reviewer wait till you submit a paper to a refereed journal and get your paper chopped by anonymous, professional / academic, fisheries reviewers such as Hayward and Wang cited above.

Bill,
Please reread my post (not quite so seriously) and realize I was being light-hearted. I would welcome your review should I make it that far. As for the English jab, my sister already has 13 publications and two novels (as well as having presented at several conferences [San Antonio last year, Philidelphia and England the year before], so I am well versed in the "axing" procedures of the professional/academic community. Not to mention that my father is a retired psychologist.

Would you mind including some links to your published work? Although lately I feel as though my head is actually expanding in size (about to blow)just from the readings here, I would sincerely like to see your credentials at work.

Deb

Bruce great post. I feel the same way. Show me some good scientific proof and I will believe. Ewest just provided some that would differ from Ken's. Deb has responded well to most post but did not comment on your questions/comments?

I had one Georgia Giant in my pond from client who bought them 3 years before. It was 1.3 lbs big boy. We were taking them out of the lake but knew one would not be a problem in my pond. He would out compete all bluegill for food. He was caught many times and was dubbed "steriod bream" by a friend. He was weighed the last time at 2.1 lbs about 2.5 years after I put him in. Reason for all this, he is gone. He has not been seen since early spring. I guess he died and if so lived about 6 years from original stocking at 3 inches.

Only one example here...Duggan how old are your fish? Have you seen reproduciton? What is average size?

Hey Greg want to hear about your trip. My GG are now 4 years old. But remember I have not followed Kens plan at all(sorry Deb). I stocked Coopernose and Redears the second year mainly because this board was scaring me to death. Also I fertilize with excellent results and feed with lower protein/%fishmeal Ken recommends. The GG I catch which I consider the origional stocking are all over a pound with some 1.5 lbs. I am having good reproduction but I don't know if they are GG F-2s, Coppernoses or GG/coopernoses Hybrids. I am careful to look for any signs of Greensunfish and have not seen any. IDing sunfish is something I am not as good at as Bruce ect so I mostly look for the large mouth as a GG

Ok BIll it was fun, killed lots of doves. I did see one thing applies here. There were water snakes that hangout at fish feeder. When it goes off they go out and catch the smaller bluegill and little gambusia minnows. Brush country is unique place.

Ok so good percentage of stock still living it seems is pretty good after 4 years? Can you post a pic of offspring? Are they growing as well as first stock of GG?

Greg I am not sure I should in fairness to Ken because of my stocking methods. I don't want to post a GG/coopernose hybrid and everyone jump on the F-2s being so different. Did that make any sense?

that does make sense since you did sotck bluegill. I still think that was critical for your early bass growth.

Deb - I will email you at work address about a list of my publications and presentations.

You should be getting an idea of the general opinions of the doubts and vague facts regarding the GG hybrids. More and more it is becoming evident that we would really like to see you be able to get some QUALITY photos of the GG's that are 2 lbs or even 3 lbs. The fish can come from Ken's hatchery stock or a pondowner near the hatchery. As Bruce said if someone can produce some reproducable, scientific growth data about GG's then Ken's market would definitely increase.

Ok Greg, you promised to leave my thread alone so jump ship . Just kidding. I guess I can play with you like any other rattlesnake. I just called John, our biologist out in the field, in reference to some literature on growth rates. He stated some literature did exist (stored in basement), so now I have yet another project. As for the pictures we have none on file other than those pictured in the catalog. But, just yesterday they were catching 1 1/2 to 2 pounders for a fish fry in the pond behind Jason's home (Ken's son). John said that they were set to drain this pond (stocked 2 years ago) in the next month or two, so I will have enough pictures then to hopefully satisy everyone, even doubting Greg. You all might want to go to O'Neal's website also. He filmed last Spring at a pond of a customer of ours in Tifton, and they were popping GG's over a pound. Maybe he has shows on tape for sale.
I will make believers out of you all yet.

By the way Greg since you are so dead set against the GG, yet you admit to learning alot while in the field, why don't you grow some GG's under your program and report back to us? Just a thought! You have stated all of the complaints that you have had to deal with on them, but were these fish grown with your knowledge and expertise?

Deb

Oops, sorry Greg, wrong post! You keep popping up in places when I feel just comfortable enough to be there. Kinda like a little brother ! I can't learn if you keep pestering me !!!

Deb

I haven't commented directly on the GG yet so here goes.

After reading all these threads I am left with the impression I get from a good salesman.

It should be after 40 yrs in business a simple matter to provide data, pictures, ect to back up all the great claims of GG's.

It is dificult for me to believe no pic's are on file after 4 decades of growing a particular & special quality fish, and no data has been collected.

Several questions have been answered but in a tactfull way as we expect a politician to respond. Many were evasive.

AND , What happened to Ken? No offense Deb, but it would be nice to here his views.

Deb - When they drain that pond be sure to get some length measurements and acurate weights. Also make note of the varability in sizes of GG's esp those that seem to belong to the same year class. you should be able to easily recognize the different year classes due to disparity in size. Some scale samples from proper body areas would be appreciated by Bruce Conello. Do you know the proper area of the body for collecting sunfish scale samples?

Deb, I have another question about this topic that you should be able to fairly easily answer or at least get some data for it.

What is the largest size of F1 GG's that the hatchery can produce in one season? i.e. The best size of GG available from the first spawn of the year- May to November or early Dec? Actual measurements no estimates and a photo of one or several next to a ruler would be nice.

The reason Deb, or Ken, don't produce proof of their claims is that there is none. This is old news, a super bluegill grown by a pro with "patents". Sorry, but only the name is patented, according to the patent office. Ken is a big time salesman (conman?), selling the typical bullshit hybrid bluegill that revert to greenies, but with a clever marketing spin and push. I can't believe that there is even a thread for this, GET A CLUE!! If this was the real deal, you would see piles of evidence, and unending testimonials, not to mention numerous state records. Where are they? They grow a few big fish, so what? The standard bluegill has some impressively sized specimens as well. Anyone that buys this line of crap from Ken deserves what they get, lighter in the wallet with a pond full of plain hybrid bluegills. Give up on demanding scientific review and use a little logic. No credible objective evidence, decades with no buzz other than that produced by Ken (lots of fish sold, where are all the tickled shitless buyers with ponds overrunning with 3 pound gills?), deceptive marketing language (patents, special strain, available no where else). This is a new twist on an old idea, it's called a scam. ANYONE WANT TO BUY A BRIDGE IN BROOKLYN?

Just my dumb hillbilly opinion, ready to get fired on with abuse.

Bill- Thanks for the suggestions! That is exactly what we will do when we drain (ruler as well as using scales for weight), and yes I can handle the scale sampling properly. I can also handle the one season question, as it will be around November when we drain that one pond (should not be a problem to “test drive” the other ponds for an accurate growth on a season one F-1). The info that others have referred to is there, it is just a bunch of information buried in a mound of paperwork that I have not had the time to get to. Pictures have been posted, and more will follow. Documents will also, but I fear that even a fish up against the side of the head would not change the limited views of some.
I do not believe I have evaded any questions. I have requested time for research, but have not evaded anyone (also am a scientist, not a salesperson).

As for bridges, they are also good for jumping! :rolleyes:

Deb

Sorry again Bill ! Just could not keep my hands tied down .

No problem I think Bob Lusk calmed things down

Too late Robinson! I bought it from my microbe guy Now I only need to get my footpaths finished.


Chip

Claims on the website (Ken's):

1. can be stocked at 5000/acre.
2. livestock breeders work hard to prevent inbreeding, this causes stunting in fish.
3. known to make 33% gain in fall, winter and early spring.
4. selling hybrids since 1971.
5. GG grows 3x faster than others.

claim on this topic:

1.haven't had time for research.
2. "I am a scientist not a salesman"

34 years isn't enough time to do the research, eh. But it was plenty of time to make the bold assertions in claims 1,3, and 5. I guess those are just bs claims since there is no research behind it to show.
As for livestock. How do you think all of these different varieties of domestics are developed? As a matter of fact, inbreeding is used intensively in pure breds and breed development, and it does not necessarily lead to stunting. Are flemish giant rabbits, percheron stallions, and english mastiffs stunted? Crowding causes stunting, if you can produce proof that inbreeding always causes stunting, produce it!
As for 5000/acre, I can believe that. But only if in a monoculture fish farm scenario, as they are not sterile and would reproduce and stunt. they would need to be in a mixed population with predator species, which would then make the stocking rate far too high.

If you are scientist, act like one. Show some science. Even if you are, you would certainly agree that your company is without a doubt engaging in deceptive messaging in the form of its claims. They assertions use scientific and factual language, yet you admit that in 34 years there is no real research and there hasn't been time?

If your a scientist go back to school, if your a salesman admit it. I strongly encourage anyone to visit the Ken's site, and compare the claims to reality and your own admissions of this thread.

As for the fish upside the head, HIT ME WITH IT!!!!! It would be the closest thing to scientific evidence you have shown.

I don't think the flame was necessary. I believe it is already a known fact that the georgia giant is still a bluegill hybrid at heart. Some people are willing to deal with the work of having a bluegill hybrid since they consistently produce better fish then BG fisheries, for the first 2-3 years anyway. That is why the conversations continue. It is not a cheaper option in the long run than the regular BG/LMB pond. That is a fact. Its just that some people will foot the bill for bigger, better fish even if its only for the first 2-3 years.

Consult the post in this area call "Hybrid Sunfish Explained" by Bill Cody for more info and elaboration on hybrids.

Allchca,

Heck some fools have even been known to stock a fish which dies out every time it gets a little cold and even worse is very difficult to catch (and costs more than a GG)...can you imagine any fool who would do such a thing?

signed, a fool for two seasons running and Dang happy about it!

ML :

I know a few folks who do that and a bunch more who use t. shad which have less utility ( don't know anyone who eats TS). But interestingly they all are smart folks who understand the science behind what they are putting in the pond and the results which follow . Plus if they make a mistake it is self correcting when it gets cold. Not much risk involved. ewest

EWEST,

I don't see any risk at all involved in stocking a small pond with GG's with the objective of the GG being the end in itself and not a means to an end.

About the worst thing that can happen is that they only grow as fast as a regular BG, but the price is the same regardless if its GG, CNBG, or RES.

Maybe one risk...that some of you will ridicle me or Gator if the experiment fails, but hey, I've had those slams before for trying something new and expect to get them again. I'm in this for fun, not to win a Nobel prize.

The important thing is to do what Deb says, view the GG as an end in itself not a means to an end. I think many people perhaps make a mistake in that regard....and are very disappointed as a result. Let's see what happens to trying this as an end itself, not a means to an end. Once we catch all or most of the original GG's, we start over again....assuming the experiment is successful, that is.

If it works, it will provide my family with a great small "perch jerking pond" to compliment other ponds which have other purposes, such as the growth of catchable LMB, HSB, and diverse fishing experiences. No, I don't see a big risk at all.

ML, I agree in that case, except if off spring are inferior you might have to drain in a few years compared to CNBG. They have there place but believe me they are stocked in many situations where folks did not have the goals you mention, that is my gripe.

Well, Greg, if people choose to stock incorrectly, then shame on them...if Deb or her company recommends GG for purposes other than that which is intended/designed, e.g. part of a trophy LMB program, then shame on her.

As yet, I have not seen Deb do that.

Why are we back to inferior offspring. Is not the predator base to prevent this? HSB and/or LMB will surely clean up the babies, especially in a new pond without much cover.

As O'reilly would say, "where am I wrong here?"

ML :

My comment regarded risk in the abstract. It was not refering to your kids pond ,or Gator, or anyone doing an expir. with knowledge or anyone using tilapia or TS. It is simply that the result of using tilapia or TS or for that matter crappie are known while with GG you don't know what you end up with. For most pond owners starting over is not an acceptable risk option. For small ponds or those with knowledge renovation may well be an acceptable risk. ewest

Not to argue, but I think this is part of the mis-communication regarding GG.

GG, the original stocker, not the offspring, is the end objective. That is the target fish. It is NOT a means to an end. How can it be stated any clearer?

When the original stockers are gone, you start over, assuming you like the results from the originals. What about that is risky? A three year cycle is what I expect. If it lasts longer, then its a bonus. I already have the pump to start over. Maybe my grandkids will be so hooked on fishing by then they will be ready to "graduate" to other fish...maybe I will like the GG's so much on the fly rod, I'll not graduate myself. I don't know. I just want to have some fun with these, and I fully intend to do just that.

Actually, I'm thinking a side benefit might well be some grown-out HSB that I can then move to my larger ponds. I see this as part of a system...a system of ponds...designed to meet multiple objectives to please several types of fishing. I fail to see any risk, other than those I mentioned previously.

Meadowlark, can you get GG? I haven't asked around but I wouldn't mind getting a few as pets if the local fish farms have them.

BrianH,

If I work out a deal with Deb, they will be delivered sometime in late November. At her recommended stocking rates I'm sure I wouldn't miss a few if they became your pets...but you would have to either come near my place or where Gator has his delivered to pick them up.

A better approach might be to contact her about shipping you a few...just don't tell her the size of your tank or she will apply her stocking rates to that also... just kidding of course.

You can probably buy hybrid BG here in Texas, but some folks have about phased them out because they didn't see much growth benefit. It remains to be seen if the true GG do provide that growth as stated. If you want a few of mine, just let me know. I'm happy to oblige.

Alright, now I have a 90 gallon tank sitting with no fish in it. I have a GG supplier about an hour away. Now you have got me thinking outside the pond :rolleyes: . I have successfully spawned bluegill in this tank before and had no mortality of the origional stockers. I used a 35 gallon wet/dry system with protein skimmer. Hmm.... I wonder what kind of growth rates I am looking at. Any suggestions on stocking rates minus predator? And what to do with offspring if it should happen? Man my head is spinning. Future post and photos to come soon .

Ml, I see your point and agree she has not sold fish here to bass pond clinets, in fact stated clearly not suggested pratice. However have bass clients that have followed GG stocking and yes maybe shame on them I was not there to hear the conversation, point taken.

Burger, why back to offspring b/c this will happen eventually and have for years stated like ML about 3 yr window of good results. My questions for Deb is that she states some ponds continue good growth for 20 yearts, how does she explain that one? You are not suggesting GG live that long, :p

I will be away from computer for a couple weeks, keep it inline Deb,

ML great offer but I didn't want to go through much effort. Where is your place?

Greg Quote: "My questions for Deb is that she states some ponds continue good growth for 20 yearts, how does she explain that one? You are not suggesting GG live that long,"

I do not believe I ever stated that ponds continue good growth for 20 years. What I did say was that "Bubba" the 5 pounder, was in a pond that had been stocked with GG 20 years prior. Was he an original? We do not know because Ken got so excited when the customer brought the fish in that he did not do a proper scale sample (Ken still hangs his head in dismay for not doing this).
This is it in a nutshell:
Stock heavier than normal (meaning "the standard state recommendation") with the GG's and predators (one to five) to prevent most all of the offspring from growing up. Catch and release the GG's, or catch and eat then restock later down the road. Will you grow trophy LMB? No! Can you grow decent size fish of variety? Yes! If the catch and release program is followed you will get many years of good growth on the GG. I personally like the GG, HSB, and gambusias in a pond. But this is my preference, and everyone has their own. Every pondowner is responsible for their own pond.
Let's use Greg for example: A customer comes to Greg in need of pond maintenance and possible stocking options. Greg gets the history that he can from the customer and then makes recommendations based on what the customer wants to get out of the pond. Greg sells the guy some fish, chemicals, and/or equipment, and then the guy goes on his merry way. At what point does responsibility change hands? If the gentleman went home and did the exact opposite of what Greg recommended and then suffered a fish kill, chances are he would blame Greg. But it would not be Greg's fault, would it?
My point is that regardless of whether we stock, manage or advise ponds/pondowners, final responsibilty rests with the customer. It is our job to aid them, but we don't always have all the facts laid out for us. Now please nobody jump off on a tangent about me shucking responsibility, because truth be told we replace thousands of fish yearly for customers who purchased fish and then killed them within a day or two because they had high ammonia, low pH, or they did not temp them properly. Do we have to do this? No, but it is the way we handle business!

Back to the start of this post (with Greg's comment), what is the oldest freshwater fish anyone has seen? Anybody can answer, I am just curious!

Thanks,
Deb

Aaron :

Look at this and see if you are interested. ewest

Out-of-Season Spawning of Sunfish Lepomis spp. in the Laboratory
CHARLES C. MISCHKE and JOSEPH E. MORRIS

Department of Animal Ecology, Iowa State University, 124 Science II, Antes, Iowa 50011, USA

Abstract.—Although propagation of sunfish Lepomis spp. has historically been done in earthen ponds, there is interest in producing these fish in the laboratory. The objective of this study was to spawn sunfish out of season by means of temperature and photoperiod manipulation. By manipulating temperature and photoperiod, we were able to spawn bluegills L. machrochirus over a 6-month period (December 1994–May 1995): 41 spawns. averaging 20.000 larvae each, were obtained from 24 females. By manipulation of photoperiod alone, we were able to spawn fish during a 3-month period (October–December 1995): 21 bluegill spawns of about 20.000 larvae each and 7 spawns of hybrid sunfish (female green sunfish L. cyanellus × male bluegills) of about 10,000 larvae each were obtained from 12 female bluegills and 24 female green sunfish, respectively. This protocol allows for production of sunfish larvae, regardless of season and without the use of hormones, for both laboratory studies and aquaculture stocking.

Deb wrote:

Back to the start of this post (with Greg's comment), what is the oldest freshwater fish anyone has seen? Anybody can answer, I am just curious!

I worte:

deb the stergon gets REALLY OLD!!!!

but I know the bluecat can get as OLD as 30 years.....

Big Pond :

I bet that mekong catfish that was on here about 6 mths ago was a lot older than 30. ewest

By Katie Kalmerton
Published: Thursday, October 13, 2005
Article Tools: Page 1 of 1
Media Credit: Zeb Hogan

Media Credit: Zeb Hogan
The world´s largest freshwater fish: a giant 646 lb. catfish caught by fishermen in northern Thailand.

Media Credit: Zeb Hogan
Zeb Hogan holds a Taiman. These fish can grow to two meters in length and weigh up to 450 lb.

Weighing 646 pounds and measuring 8'10" in length, a goliath catfish was hauled in off the coasts of Thailand this year.

It was later recorded in the Guinness Book of World Records as the largest freshwater fish.

The locals attempted to keep the fish alive and free it. However, it died and was used for food.

This giant fish was not a freak of nature by any means. The goliath catfish was once up to 99 percent more prevalent in the Mekong River of Indochina. Presently, giant fish-defined as fish six feet in length or longer and 200 pounds or more-are becoming scarce worldwide.

In collaboration with National Geographic, the World Wildlife Fund, the World Conservation Union, also known as IUCN and researchers at UW-Madison, Zeb Hogan, a post doctoral fellow at the center for limnology at UW-Madison, began a global project in November to identify the world's largest freshwater fish.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001790

big_pond,
You're right Sturgen can live for over 100 yrs & grow over 10 ft!

Some how I came across this thread on google. Does anybody have a picture of this Bubba fish.

I stocked some of the early GG in the 90's and got some really great fish. It seemed to me that I did not get the same growth from the GG later ordered as they got more popular. The original fish will be the largest and each folling generation seem to get smaller and smaller. The way Ken explained it to me in the 90's was the first delivered are a F1 breed and each hatch drops in size and would not be as large as the group before.

Holy Cow! Thanks Tums. What did that thing weigh?

That's a nice one Esshup. Might be wrong one though.

That is a 5# GG.

Dang!

Will those hogs live in Missouri?

When you said Bubba Fish, I didn't know if you were talking about Sunfish or Catfish.

Oh, so that's bubba the catfish.

I believe I may be the first one that stocked 5000/acre in the mid 90's. What we did was stock them on April fools day and feed very heavily for 6 months. At that time the GG was large enough that we could stock hundreds of bass in the less than 2# range (small enough that they could not eat the original stocked GG). This allowed us to grow out giant original GG over 3# without over population and not waste feed on later hatches that would not get as large. The large GG also preyed on the bass hatchlings which helped keep them from getting over populated. The pond stayed pretty balanced by allowing people to fish after year 2 keeping all GG under 10" and bass under 14" all the way until year #5. During year number 5 some local kids that had got on drugs (uncle was neighbor so no one caught onto what they where doing) that new of the large bream fed and seined alot of the fish out of the pond. My father and I that normally look after things where out of town for several days in deep sea fishing tourney. They took thousands of fish out and sold them at 25 cents a piece in order to raise money for drugs (according to local authorities). If anyone has any quesion about what I have done with GG along time ago I will feel free to answer them. I however will not be able to speak on the GG that is sold today and or its current quality. I no longer have any (drained the last of those ponds a while back and have not purchased any in years.

They sound instresting.

I am sure they would. First I can not speak for the GG today and how they do. I do know that from my dealings with Ken (before he died) that the ones I had got smaller with each breeding cycle once introduced to your pond. He told me to think of it like this. The ones I got from him where a F1 direct decendant strain. There offspring would be a smaller F2 version and so on. WAY Back then any GG you got from anyone other than Ken at Kens Fish Farm where not going to get as big as his. I went with a plan to grow out some giant F1 GG and it worked well for me in the mid to late 90's. I also think the colder climates probably ould not grow as large a fish either.

BTW you can go to this web site and look at the pictures and you will see the same one i posted.
Kens fish farm

I see they ship overnight, but no prices.

I have a price list from september as I wanted one to look into their HYTECK SPECK crappie. I just called and had them fax me a price list then.
I just looked and here is the price on that list for the GG.
Size up to 2"
Up to 499 45 cents a piece
500 to 1999 41 cents a piece
2000 to 3499 31 cents a piece
3500 to 9999 30 cents a piece
does not say what the price for shipping is but says a quantity of 500 minimum for truck , UPS or FED EX delivery.

Thanks Tums.

I am going to pop some popcorn, could be fun

haha good call!

Are you saying I will be attacked on here for growing 3# GG's?

BTW before anyone ask for my DATA I lost everthing I own in a house fire just after Y2K. I can only tell you what I remember and know and can not give exact measures and weights. Also as far as I know Ken did not use any of my Data. I am so far out of the norm for a pond owner that it would be useless to the average pond owner.

Think I better stick with HBG.

Everyone do your own due diligence by reading on PB before you make any choices. I am not going to repeat several years of acrimony nor watch Bill burn the popcorn. It's your pond do what you want. Forewarned is forearmed.



VS

I do not blame you there. I acutually went back to just stocking regular CNBG. I put a small fortune into raising 3# GG's. In Dec, 2003 I gave up the idea of raising big fish and started concentrating more on the Oceans for my big fish fix.

That is one funky looking fish.

Over the years, there has been much posted and published on the Internet and elsewhere about Georgia Giants. Before purchasing any, do yourself a favor and "Google" Georgia Giants. The words "caveat emptor" show up quite regularly.

Look hard at alternatives, such as coppernose bluegill, hybrid bluegill from reputable sources, or just plain bluegill. All have their place. All will grow.

In my main pond, I regularly pull out 11-12 inch northern strain bluegill.

My other pond is in the early stages of hybrid bluegill that are green sunfish / bluegill offspring. They have their issues, but if you know the issues, they do initially grow fast because they are so vicious, including thier desire for pellets.

I am too far north to get reasonable growth from coppernose bluegill.

I'll admit to watching this thread most of the day, with mixed feelings.... part morbid curiosity, and an equal part apprehension

I'm not going near the GG issue, but I will take this opportunity to plug my favorite fish, when used in the correct environment!!

These were caught by me this week, nowhere near the size of the ones we caught in the spring, but all well over a pound.

Nice fish ! I will copy the pics to the HBG thread.

I'd forgotten how old this thread was.

In my many years with Pond Boss, I've really valued all the opinions and observations that have been posted. A reasonalbe conclusion almost always results due to the the many postings.

As a last resort, as moderators, we consult with each other many times before any actions are taken. Often, we ask for Bob Lusk's opinion. Sometimes, we go beyond that for the opinions of other experts before we take any actions.

We can all grow big bluegill/sunfish.


(Yes, that is really me. Yes, that bluegill is really from my pond.)

Sometimes they are real. Sometimes they are figments in our minds. Sometimes ....

As said above, caveat emptor.

Condello technique perfection.. is that a 3" fish

NICE fish Tony!

If I had the time and the pond space, I'd like to see what Female RES/Male Condello BG would look like in a couple years.

How about Male Condello Strain bluegill X Female, feed trained RES? Working on it furiously for 2013.

Shup I wish I could just get my hands on some of the CSBG.. I might have to give selecting breeding a shot.. They'd be SSBG Or BGSS.. Schlemer strain not super sport lol..

Bruce, let me know how it turns out. I think it's a great cross.

And Bruce let me know when you get overnight shipping service to distribute your fish

Sometime within the next few days I am going to give my final thoughts on GG and Ken, good and bad. Most don't know me (don't post much anymore) but I have been GG biggest fan. This has been discussed for years, sometimes heatly. EWEST drops his coffee in his lap when he sees GG in a post.
BTW Dave will get all three grandgirls all this weekend, better make boiled peanuts
Bill

Just a few minutes talking with Bruce at the conference has me allocating cage space for feed training RES this upcoming spring......

Dang guess google brought up a contrversial topic. The thread got me hook, line, and sinker. Glad I got you guys to keep in line. Thanks!

I'm just wondering if Debra is still posting on this site? Or if she is still working with the GG's? Very intellegent person with a strong backbone!

Ya see, going to the conference was a good thing after all!

Ok, here we go. Some of this post is facts, but most is my opinion , guesses or second hand information.
Background, build a 3.5 acre pond on family land in Putnam Co Ga about 10 years ago. I had heard of GG and Ken through friends and family members who had stocked GG. Everything I was told was good. Caught a 2+ pound GG in a friends pond and I was sold. Started calling Ken for advice. Did he push GG? Yep. Then I found Pond Boss"s old message board and posted about GG and heard nothing but bad things. Decided to play it safe and stock bluegill/RES combo. Called the order in to Ken (he sell GG and other bream at the same price) and in 15 minutes he had me talked back into GG. Called himself the most hated man in the fish business, that eveyone lied about him and his fish. Stocked 2500 GG. GG were delivered by truck. Went to the hatchery three time to pick fish up. CC,LMB and HS. Each time picked them up Saturday morning which is their most busy times so usually had a couple hour wait. I guess because Ken and I had talked so much I sat with him waiting. A interesting man, a natural saleman. Someone who did not do their research could end up with a pond overloaded with fish. Also a very sick man even back then

The good about GG. Fast growth rate, mine were a pound, in one year, one and one half pounds in year two. Very aggressive, easy to catch, maybe to easy. Pond did not fill up with green sunfish. Never saw what I though were F-2's Also I added CNB later.

The bad about GG. Same as the good they are aggressive, they will drive you crazy when you fish for LMB. Any lure you fish with, because of their large mouth, they will hit. Goal large LMB, this is not your fish

Here we get into second hand information. I was told by an employee of Ken's I knew fairly well that only Ken and his son Jason knew the secret lineage of GG but it was 5 different fish. Personally I don't believe that is true. Some people think it is the standard cross and everything else is just marketing hype. Pure guess on my part but I think it is the standard cross with a little RES mixed in plus Ken doing a good job with his brood stock.

Ken thought you should stock 5000 GG per acre airate and feed grow monster GG's and in 5 years pull the plug and start over. No question there was a lot of hype to Ken. Hogzilla ring a bell. This was not my or my wallet's goal and he sold me what I wanted.

Two long time Pond Boss posters had bad experiences dealing with Ken the last few years before he passed away, Don't know why and will not speculate other than I do not question the posters stories.

I assume Jason is now running Ken's but a web site is a shell to what it used to be so I don't know how viable the business is. We use to have a new poster every few month ask about Ken, that does not happen much now.

Sold my farm about 5 years ago so can not give an update on the GG.

If I was starting over would I stock GG, probably not, but if I did it would be low numbers stocked along with CNB and RES.

This pretty well goes along with my expirence with GG also. MY F1 GG provided what I expected which was some 3# class of fish with alot also between 2 to 3#. I (like you) sat and talked with Ken on Saturdays while picking up fish. Seemed like a real nice person that was a salemen for his business. I can say what I was sold I was not lied to about. I never really heard any complaints about Kens until later in his life (after y2k), I often wonder if his health had anything to with it and he could not keep up with the daily grind. The problem I had with my order the 3#'s came from was my fault and Ken worked with me on it. My fault is how I wound up with 5000 fish per acre. I would not be suprised if my results caused Ken into doing a 5000 per acre trial somehwere else. I often tell people that ask that my opinion is the GG is for short term large fish and not long term stability. I do not try and sell them to people, but I also do not tell people to stay away. I am not like some People and have a BIASED opinion. I know plenty of people in my area that are satisfied with the product. So I simply just lay out the ups and downs and let the pond owner make the decision.

Not active anymore and was let go by the company/Ken last info I have.

The assistant fisheries biologist for my district here in Indiana is, or at least was, named Debra King.. Don't know if she's still there, or even if it's the same person, but I've often wondered about shooting her an e-mail.

Thanks Bill. Always good to have you post. Hope you get a new place/pond soon.

Just so you know the F1 is the original fish delivered from the hatchery. The fish in the picture could only be an F2 at best being born 10 months later. GG reproduce as early as 3 to 5" so it could actually be the by product of 2 F2's mating. I never have been fond of anything after the F1 delivered fish.