Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Why not croppie

I am stocking a brand new pond 1 acre surface and 12' deep. I have been reading as much as I can to have a healthy pond. How ever one thing I have been reading is that croppie are not the best choice for a small pond. I realy would like to make them go in it. I would rather not have bass or cat fish. My try to stock some walleye to act as preditor. Unsure of pred fish.

MN -- where are you in Minnesota?? Will you have aeration to prevent winterkill, or do you have a gravel-pit type pond? Walleyes are tough to use in a pond of only 1 acre; not saying that you can't, just that it's tough. Post a little more information, and we'll see if we can help. Describe the pond a little more.

MN, I'm also in MN. I have a 1/2 acre pond and the crappie do great. Problem is that they do too well. I made the mistake of putting 100 crappie in my pond and now I spend all summer trapping hundreds of little ones so they don't overpopulate. I don't think I could fit enough predators in the pond to control them. Unless your pond is large and deep you will need aeration to avoid winter kill I think. With a bottom diffuser in my pond running 8 hours per day I have not lost a single fish that I know about. I have turned the aerator off for periods of time and notice that if you have much organic matter in the pond you will very quickly get high levels of hydrogen sulfide or whatever it is that causes the rotten egg smell. Then you really have to be careful what you do. Best to keep aeration all year. I have had very good luck with my BG.

I live in south central MN. I do plan to run an aeriator all year. The pond will be mostly feed from ground water and is a clay sand mix. I'm also planing to use feild stones to line the north edge of the pond to help keep the shorline from washing out and clouding the water. Not sure if it will work. Sounds like I sould put pred fish in befor croppie if they spawn that well in MN ponds.

MN, My experience with crappie is that they are not aggressive enough to compete with other fish. Mine survive but they have slow growth rates and are skinny. If I had to do it over, I would stock the less competitive fish(crappie, walleye, etc.) a couple of seasons before the other stock to let them get a head start. That's assuming you get a forage base well established. That's important.
At the least, you'll have a few good yrs. with the crappie before the dominant fish start taking over.
Got to be patient and not stock everything at once. I know its hard to wait though.

Would'nt you want an established preditor base BEFORE stocking Crappie - to ensure they dont over populate and stunt?

MN,

I'm with Gator. You'll end up with an overpopulated, stunted crappie pond if you don't have predators to keep them in check. Not sure about MN, but down here you need a bass heavy pond to grow decent specks.

I've had only 2 -3 successful crappie spawns in 10 yrs. The predators I have seem to handle the crappie population pretty well. I have more of a problem with red ear and perch. It takes a couple yrs. up here before the crappie spawn anyway. If you want nice eating size crappie, you'll have to let them feed for a couple yrs. without having to compete with the bass and BG. They just can't compete. IMHO

Thanks for the update, MN. If you use the search function for this forum, you'll find a lot of threads about crappies. You'll also find a lot of opinions: strong opinions for and against crappies.

I'm one who believes that you can have crappies in ponds. I'm over in east-central SD, so I'm not too far from you.

First of all, use black crappies. They're a better pond species than white crappies. Blacks can do ok on zooplankton and insects, while my pet belief is that white crappies really need some fish as prey items.

In your case, I am really leery about the potential for walleyes to control crappies. As you have already heard, crappies are very prolific. Thus, a strong predator base is needed to thin the small crappies. If the little crappies are thinned by predators, then the few survivors have more food per individual, and they grow faster and get larger.

We produced 10-12 inch black crappies in a 3-acre pond that used largemouth bass as the predator. I know that walleyes are king, or maybe queen, in MN, just like in SD. However, most ponds here will support at least 50 pounds per acre of largemouth bass. It's rare to find more than 10 pounds per acre of walleyes in a pond. That 50 pounds per acre of largemouth bass, and they tend to be smaller bass when they are so abundant, is what controls the crappie reproduction. 60%, 80%, or more of the bass may be <12 inches long. So, you sacrifice quality of bass to get the bigger crappies.

The problem with this pond management strategy is that you don't get massive numbers of crappies to harvest, if you're planning on the fillets. The lower density crappie populations produce bigger crappies, but not big numbers in a pond that is only 1 acre.

I know that people like walleyes, and I know that a lot of pondowners want diversity. If you are set on using a walleye black crappie combination, you can try. However, the walleyes almost certainly will not naturally reproduce in your pond. Thus, you'll have to restock them at advanced sizes, probably something like 8-inch replacements. Also, you'll want to crowd the walleyes to get enough predation on the small crappies, so the walleyes should be thin and slow growing. Largemouth bass will almost certainly reproduce naturally in your pond.

Hope this helps!

MN Fisherman, I'm in SE South Dakota which should be similar to your situation.

When you talk about crappie and walleye, I'm guessing that the primary purpose of your lake is to produce fish to eat. Is this true? Can you explain your thinking about the species you want to have a bit more?

I certainly agree with Dave Willis. He is successfully managing a number of lakes with crappie using the techniques he described.

We have both black and white crappie without any problem. Keep in mind our goals for our lake. We use it primarily for kids, handicapped and elderly fishing. It is all catch and release and is fished 5-6 days a week. We want and have a very high catch rate (about a fish every 2-5 minutes per rod). Bluegill are 7-10 inches, LMB & SMB are 10-18 inches, HSB are 10-14 inches and the crappie are 8-12 inches. What all of this does is provide a very high predator base and they hold the crappie in check very well.

Wow lots of diffrent info. I plan on useing my pond for open water fishing and "Hard water fishing" that's ICE fishing, for you guys from the south. I gotta have croppies. I'm not dead set on wallies I just thought they would make a good pred fish over bass. Should the pred fish be started this fall and the croppies in the spring?

MN -- what sizes of fish are you talking about? Will you buy small fingerlings from commercial dealers, or are you talking about moving adult fish?

There is a local fish farm near my place. They will sell me 3-5" croppies. Also planing to get fat heads from them.

MN, if those black crappies are up to 5 inches long now, they may be able to spawn next spring. Generally speaking, crappies mature at about 6-7 inches or so. So, if they still grow some this fall, they might be capable of spawning next May or June. So, I'd sure want a predator in the pond with the crappies to try to control their offspring. Does your dealer have any advanced fingerlings of largemouth bass or walleye? I'd prefer largemouth bass, as I said earlier, but at least the walleyes would be a predator. This is one of the problems with various panfish species -- they often mature before the predators, especially this far north. Largemouth bass don't mature until 11-12 inches, while the walleyes don't mature until 15-17 inches. If the crappie spawn is uncontrolled, then the crappies will overpopulate and stunt, and you won't be happy with their small size.

MN Fish - First get your fatheads stocked. If money is an object then you will need time to wait for a minnow spawn (one summer) to produce lots of small forage fish. Brood fish fathead stocking about 10-13 lbs in one ac. Money buys time, when it comes to stocking fish by size or quantity. If money is not limiting then buy about as much forage fish (minnows)as what can be produced during a summer's spawning. This should amount to abt 60-100 lbs of adult minnows to buy or raise. These small forage fish will feed your first introductions of sport fish.

Based on what has been discussed above AND my experiences with crappie, I think you should stock walleye (bass) and let them get to 8" to 12" long before you stock the first blk crappie. An option would to buy the stocker walleye at 8"-10" long OR when minnows are or become abundant then stock 3"-5" walleye and wait for walleye growth. You want predators (8"-12" bass-walleye) present when the crappie spawn the 1st time. Your blk crappie spawn could be like bz's or fishfird's; prolific or sporatic. Either way, you want this size of predator present to heavily crop the 1"-2.5" crappie when they appear. Expect crappie to spawn at sizes mentioned by Dr. Willis. Crappie and your predator will quickly deplete your minnow base as these sport fish grow to the next size increments. As a result the Fathead minnows will not be the backbone of your forage fish if your pond is the typically managed 1 ac pond. Fathead minnows serve to jump start a fishery and rarely persist in quantity for the long term (post 3-6yrs).

Dr. Willis mentioned that blk crappie will eat and survive on lots of invertebrates. True. But blk crappie also like and will eat lots of minnows when small fish are common. Often the blk crappie I catch have small fish in their gut (minnows, shiners, sunfish, bgill, bass, etc).

I think a yellow perch / walleye andor SM bass fishery would be easier for you to manage and a more rewarding fishery at 1 acre. Y perch bite year round. You know how they taste. We easily grow 12"-13" yellow perch in OH & IN in 1/3 to 1 acre ponds. A few of the perch get to 14"-15" long with proper management. A few Blk Crappie can be added to this fishery when it becomes established after 5 to 7 yrs. Large yellow perch will help prey on small 1/2"-1.7" crappie.

I agree with advice here but one word of caution to throw in the mix. If you really like crappie add a few (~30) now along with other predator after the minnows, bluegill are established. I have had a hard time getting crappie started in a pond with good bass populaiton so start now but DO NOT let them overpopulate. This is a tough task on 1 acre pond but go for it. Take others advice add another predator or you will be sorry with carppie growth without numbers being controlled.

MN -- Bill Cody and Greg Grimes are two of the very best and most reliable forum members.

Dave

Dr Willis is also tops in my fisheries notables. Thanks Dave for the compliment. Numerous good experienced "fish people" frequent this forum.

Here are a couple of thoughts regarding G.Grimes Sept 03rd post (above) and post scripts.

1. Greg mentions the addition of bgill and I'm not sure that MN was wanting to stock bgill. Bgill should be considered and carefully evaluated before adding them to this fishery. There are several Pros and Cons to adding bgill.

2. Greg mentions about sometimes having a hard time getting crappie started in pond with an established "good" bass population. I assume GG means "getting crappie started" as having the stocked fish (crappie) produce spawns and a regular recruitment of young crappie into the fishery as opposed to getting a good percentage of the stocked fingerlings to survive.

After experiencing overpopulation & stunting of over abundant crappie (5"-6" lengths), I would prefer in a one ac pond that the crappie do not spawn. This way I could have some crappie to catch and eat each year and not have to worry about adequate thinning of the abundant small fish. Peroidic restocking of 3"-5" crappie in a put and take small pond fishery would be an ideal situation in my opinion. Fingerling crappie are relatively cheap and replacing 30 to 50 every year or two would not be expensive, compared to the cost and effort of trying to manage an over abundance of stunted or stunting crappie. Over abundant crappie will also have a dramatic affect of depleating the food chain and food supply of many of the other fish in the pond, thus affecting their growth rates.

3. Based on what MN has told us so far, I think an ideal situation would be a non-reproducing population of walleye and non-reproducing black crappie with a minnow forage base in the small pond. Reproducing predators in abundance demand more forage items for consistant growth. Forage items often develop short supply. Nonreproduing predators (walleye and crappie) would more easily allow the minnows to maintain a thriving population of abundant minnows while you harvest several walleye and several messes of crappie each year. One has to keep in mind that the walleye and crappie will BOTH be utilizing the minnows as forage. It would take quite a few fathead minnows, dace and or shiners to, each year, feed 20-40 walleye and 100-200 large adult(300?) crappie in an acre of water. Plus there should be numerous smaller younger crappie present to "fill-the-gap" when slabs are harvested. I doubt that MN will have a problem with his crappie producing little ones. I am not sure how many crappie to stock since we do not know if reliable spawns will occur or not. Several crappie pairs have the potential to produce lots of youngsters. I think when you are talking about minnows as forage items it is always better to have too many than too few, if you are interested in good fish growth. As Bob Lusk says "you don't want too many hogs feeding at the trough"; then growth rates decrease or sometimes growth essentially stops.

4. If MN does not introduce bgill he should have alternative forage items besides fatheads for consistant, good, fish growth. Amount of forage will depend on types of sport fish chosen and the number stocked and or recruited.

Nothing is actually simple when it comes to raising fast growing, quality fish, espesially when you start talking about alternative fisheries besides the standard bass /bgill mix.

MN, In regards to "hard water" fishing, crappie are a good bet. I ice fish a lot and crappie are the most commonly caught fish in my pond(perch probably second). I use feeder goldfish from the pet store, 10 for $1.00. Must be the clear water or something, the fish love them.

BC, thanks for the post. Yep main point is agree difficult when you start adding more species in the mix. Not sure what forage MN plans on besides BG sorry assumed this.

second pt. WHat I menat by getting them started I can better explain by example. 5 acre lake wants to catch crappie even after I explained possible risk. They are not cheap here as you mention, we stocked 500 3-5 inch crappie in the fall of the year at a csot of $625. Never caught one, none. He had a typical bass heavy pond. We/he removed 182 bass prior to this stocking.

In an ideal world yep having non reproduciong crappie is great. IN reality if you do not have another predator too many crappie. However if you have another predator they will have expensive snack when stocking 3-5 inch size crappie and stocking bigger crappie are very expensive. So I say start a few early and monitor abundance.

Greg makes good additional points.

Restocking 3"to 5" crappie with larger LMbass present in combination with reduced numbers of adequate sized forage items for the 3" to 5" crappie can easily result in low survival. I am not sure larger sized crappie handle the removal, storage and transport as well as many of the other types of fish. There are definate degrees of fish hardiness among the different species of fishes. Each hatchery handles the fish differently for different reasons. Newly stocked fingerling or juvenile crappie in a weakened condition or healthy conditon with low food resources of the new water body could be easy pickings for 14" to 16" hungry, established bass. I don't think crappie known for fast swimming ability (escape) and are susceptable or vulnerable to ambush. Numerous things could have contributed to poor survival of any restocked fish.

I am not sure about the supply of larger stocker crappie in the region of MN. I can get 7" - 9" crappie but many hatcheries around the country do not sell the larger adults. We have to keep in mind he is only dealing with a one acre pond and adding 30 to 50 adult crappie at abt $2.50 each per year or two is not a lot of expense, IF one TRULY wants quality crappie. One has to ask - What is the worth of a quality fishery? And how bad do I want it? What am I willing to go through to have it?. A Quality Fishery of Any Kind is a valuable resource. In this situation and to avoid some of the headaches or pitfalls, one can adopt the stocking philosophy of Norm Kopecky where periodically, adult sized fish are restocked when needed to maintain the angling quality desired. This is an easily do-able situation when managing the smaller pond and or if your wallet is fat when managing bigger waters. It comes down to how many adult crappie does MN expect to harvest each year from his 1 acre pond and more importantly what is a realistic harvest for his pond and its conditions?.

MN probably thought this would be an easy, and good stocking idea / prospect, but this discussion has "brought to light" or presented the possible resulting complications and potential problems of his desires or wishes. It probably went way deeper than he expected or wanted. Plus there are probably several ways to make this stocking successful. Properly Tweaking the fishery and a little luck at the proper times will do the most for providing success. Knowing when and how to "tweak" is the very hardest part AND yet the most important part. BUT, When dealing with producing alternative forms of fisheries for the long term, it is not as simple as just Stock'um and Catch'um. Lots of things can go unpredictable with what initially sounded like good idea on paper.

Anyone had experience with feeding crappie?

I assume you mean feeding them artificial food i.e. pellets.

Yes, there are a few of us that have experimented with feeding or raising crappie with fish food. I am pretty sure that black crappie were primarily used. It has been discussed with a fair amount of detail in a couple of previous posts. Using the search feature in all the headings should locate the desired discussions. Cecil has probably the most experience with pellet feeding crappie. Bottom line, it is difficult to consistantly get them started on feed and to keep them healthy while confined. I'm not sure if there is any information here or elsewhere about how many or what percentage of the feed trained crappie will remain eating pellets when they are released into the open pond setting. Not a lot of people or hatcheries do it because of the difficulty and problems involved. I think it would be very, very difficult to train very many crappie to eat fish food when the subadult or adult crappie are free ranging in an open pond.

For more info and as a start, A search using the words - crappie pellets will bring up related discussions in the headings (Forums) of: Questions & Obs., Types of Fish to Choose, Corrrective Stocking, Feeding, and Help.

Ahvatsa -- I know of one study on feeding crappie fingerlings. I'll send a .pdf copy to your e-mail address.

If anyone else is interested, let me know, and I can e-mail the report.

Dave

Thanks Bill and Dave.