Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose HSB for bullhead control

I have read that LMB are a great predator to use as bullhead control. The Department of natural resources in (I believe it was) Missouri suggest stocking 40 lbs per acre of LMB to control and eventually nearly eliminate bullhead populations. My questions are as follows:

1) what effect would a heavy population (40 lbs of 8 inch) of LMB have on the rest of the fish population? I do not believe I have read that Bullheads are very high on the LMB list at the buffet.

2) what effect would HSB have on a population of bullheads? Bullheads school over open water when young and would be easy prey for HSB. Not to mention the little thing known as stunted by overpopulation LMB.

If anyone has experience with HSB and bullheads please fill us in. I believe if they would work well it might be a route to go when controlling bullheads. I am concidering using HSB in a pond to control bullheads and I am gathering information to which will be helpful.

40 lbs of 8 inch largemouth bass extrapolates to 300-400 fish. That's way too many. You trade problems, plus the cost would be several thousand dollars. If you have 40-50 pounds of adult lmb per surface acre, they can control bullheads. As most people know, lmb will eat whatever fits into their mouths. I have used lmb to control bullhead populations. It takes a fairly long time, depending on the population of bullheads, their sizes and numbers.
HSB, on the other hand, can do a reasonable job, also. But, don't start with small ones, if larger ones are available. Mouth size is the key to solving this problem. One huge advantage to HSB...they will readily take fish food, so as they effectively do the job of eating young bullheads, they grow quickly on fish food, and when the job is done, you can continue to feed them out of competition for other forage fish. LMB will not be taken out of competition for forage fish.
One thing I always preach...learn the life histories and lifestyles of each fish which might play a role in your project. Know how they eat, how they spawn, how they interact in a community, how they eat...then you can make the best decisions how to manage your fishery.

I've had a pond for two years that had HSB and bullheads. I actually think that HSB are a lot better at controlling bullheads than they are controlling crappie or bluegill. This pond was later renovated and I found virtually no young bullies. Just a few big adults. I think young bullhead's tendency to herd in a big ball near the surface makes them look like spiny pellets. The wipers just pound them. I think young bluegill are better at utilizing micro-cover, like rooted vegetation and filamentous algae to hide.

You're right on target, Bruce!! The young bullies are very vulnerable in their "pods," and that's why largemouth bass can easily control them as well. If the bullies get out of control, then the largemouth bass abundance is certainly quite low.

Doesn't this ball or pod extend to all cats? I think this is the reason that CC's don't get much recruitment in a pond environment.

Dave -- I've supposedly learned NEVER to say never. However, I have never seen a pod or ball of small channel catfish like we commonly see for the bullheads. I worked with a lot of channel cat populations when I was a state biologist in KS. Maybe we've got some people with more expertise than me who can correct me, but I've sure never seen it. With the bullies, you can't miss it. Similarly, I've never known flatheads to do that, either. Again, maybe they do, but it sure wasn't visible to me. I've never worked where there were blue or white catfish, so can't comment on that.

You certainly are right about the vulnerability of catfish, though. When I was in school, I was taught how channel catfish won't recruit in a pond or small public impoundment if there is much of a largemouth bass population. I really wasn't sure that I completely bought the idea that 100% of the small channel cats would be eaten (maybe a high percentage, but not all). Man, I learned it was true when I worked in KS. If we skipped a stocking (such as 10-in fish) of channel cats, there was no year class of cats produced that year if that small public impoundment had a reasonable largemouth bass population.

So, perhaps one of the wiser catfish meisters can tell us why they are so vulnerable??

Doc Dave, I've seen some cat balls in lakes and creeks but never checked on whether they were bullheads. I have always assumed (There I go again) that all cats did it as fry. Now I'm curious whether other cats disperse or school as fry.

Since other small fish, both fresh and saltwater, school for protection; I figured all cats formed into the familiar ball.

I'm sure you know more about the tiny percentile of fry that actually make it to adulthood in the fish world than I do.

Now I'm curious about whether Mama Nature favors the bullhead. They do seem to have better recruitment than the channels. Channels aren't present in my creek but bullheads are. Why not? I gotta look further into this.

We need to catch the attention of the Big Boss (Lusk) and others like Greg Grimes. Surely, forum members who are "friends of catfish" know some of the life history as well???

Channel catfish have a huge disadvantage. They spawn last every year. Their babies are tiny, yellow morsels. People assume since channel catfish have three sharp spines they are hard to eat. Not true. When a catfish is first hatched, it is about twice as big as the head of a straight pin, yellow as a chicken egg yolk, and soft. As they come out of the nest, a baby channel cat is less than a quarter inch long. At that point, they enter the world in the same habitat as baby bass, baby bluegill, baby crappie...all with mouths big enough to suck down a baby channelito like a teenager eats a tootsie roll pop. Except, fish eat in one gulp. Channel catfish do live in a pod, that's partly the reason they are so vulnerable. Plus, they never come to open water. Reclusive and nocturnal, little channel catfish stay close to shore, underwater, in a wad. They are decimated, unless they have a place to hide, like in riprap. We never see schools of channel catfish fry because they are skittish, and stay deep. The only place I ever see recruitment of channel catfish is ponds or lakes with dense cover, especially rock piles or riprap.
Bullheads spawn much earlier in the season, and head for open water in big schools. One big advantage bullheads have is the ease of reproduction. They don't hide to lay eggs. Many, many fish can spawn, resulting in big numbers, and clouds, of bullheads. They move around in one tight school, all over the pond, on the prowl to eat and grow. They stay in that pod until about four inches, or until they are eaten. Bullheads can survive because they range into different habitats. Watch those pods, they move hither and yon, up and down. Channel cat don't do that.

Thanks, Bob. There you go, Dave D!

Bob,

Thanks for the great information. I have been researching the bullhead for some time now but the only thing never mentioned anywhere is HSB. I believe it would be the best all around strategy to control bullheads with out many side effects to roll on down to a heatlhy gamefish population.

I did not misspell in my origional post. They suggested to stock that many LMB to nearly eliminate a bullhead population. As we all know there are to many detrimental side effects that would follow. They stated it would take up to three years for bullhead populations to decline enough to start removing the bass. Three years plus the bass removal phase is why I started the post. From the praise given the HSB I thought it had to be a possibility.

Once again thank you for the information. If you find the time to tell of your personnal results after using HSB to control bullheads I am sure that everyone will greatly appreciate it.

In my 1 acre pond, I was able to get my bullhead population under control (mostly) in 1 year using LMB and angling pressure. At the beginning of this, the pond contained only bullhead and fathead minnows. It was also very muddy. In the spring 2004, I fished heavily for bullhead removing all that were caught. In June I added 100 3" LMB. The bass are now 11-12." I continue to remove the adult bullhead but they have become much more difficult to catch. Size has increased as well. I have seen no YOY bullhead this year and the water clarity has increased 4 fold. I have not seen a fathead minnow since early July. Still, the bass I caught in August averaged very close to 100% relative weight.

Notice, I said control not eradicated. I still see bullhead. My hope is that recruitment will get low enough that I will only have to remove a few each year. That is no problem to me. For those who don't remember, not many fish taste better than an early season bullhead.

Good Luck

OK, Sounds like the bullhead is favored over the CC by Mama Nature. Interesting that fatheads disappear in a year and bullies keep going like the Eveready Bunny

Thanks, Bob.

Dave,

Maybe we should be thinking about "Bullhead for HSB forage". May sound radical, but when Nature speaks, I generally try to listen.

Hmmmm....A pond with only bullies and wipers.

Now THAT is nitrosyncretic thinking.

It sure would be interesting to watch the carnage.

...and I know that HSB love crayfish, so I'm sure they wouldn't mind rooting around for adult fish as well.

My gut feeling for bullheads is that in a pond with predators of any kind, recruitment is so low that you eventually acheive a bifraction of bullhead sizes; those being too big to be eaten, and those small juveniles who never really last.

So I think that the bullheads would only provide forage with young of the year that would only last for few days if that.

If a bullhead somehow got to 3", 5" or even 7", I think he'd be looking over his shoulder constantly while hearing the theme from Jaws over and over in his head.

I nominate Sunil for best use of the word "bifraction" ever on this forum.

Dave,

I was amazed how quickly the fatheads disappeared. I believe the LMB leave the intermediate/adult bullheads alone and that is why they continue to persist. LMB don't give the adult fatheads the same courtesy

Sunil -- you are right on target. When I go to a central SD ranch pond that contains only largemouth bass and black bullheads, the ONLY bullheads we collect are 12-15 inches long. The big bullies actually are pretty darn cool. Must be because they weigh a couple of pounds, eh? They spawn each year, but only a minute percentage of the young fish survive the hungry bass.

Dave,

How do the LMB growth rates compare in that setting to the normal BG forage pond?

Good question, ML. I believe I was thinking the same thing after reading Dave W.'s post.

Dave W., do we read a little Canada coming out of you with the "eh?"

Meadow -- good question, as always. I actually was thinking of one pond, and it actually is on the big Turner Ranch right now. Side tibbit.

That particular pond contained overpopulated, truly stunted largemouth bass. The habitat was good -- about 30-40% submergent vegetation coverage in midsummer -- and the bass reproduced like crazy. The pond had not ever been fished. In our first electrofishing sample of 400 or so fish, not one was over 12 inches long. :-) So, 7 year old fish were just reaching 11-11.5 inches. Amazing story, ehhhh? (Sunil - it does slip out every now and then; actually, I grew up in North Dakota)

We also worked through a series of ponds out there in the central part of the state. The bass population characteristics changed with bass density. In ponds without much submergent vegetation, bass were less abundant, faster-growing, and reached larger sizes. Classic stuff, as we often discuss here on the Forum. As bass density went down, the average size of bullhead declined.

Speaking of bullhead predators (me, in this case). I'll never forget the day when I was sixteen years old. I was fishing a weedline at Hedgefield Lake and I saw my first "bullie ball" swimming nearby. I was fascinated by the seemingly thousands of black whiskered fish swimming in this tight formation. Since I was wading inside of a band of american pondweed the bullheads were oblivious to me as they swam within a foot of me. Like a big stupid heron I crouched and at the right instant I lunged my hand out to grab them, unaware of the spines that awaited me! Not one to generally use profanity I screamed every possible bad word in the book as I looked at the twenty or so bullies that were dangling off of the palm of my hand.

Lesson learned, I guess. Never did that again.

Come on now Bruce!

We know you repeat the same thing every June/July.

Stocking Bullheads !!! Somewhat crazy, but in to 60's they suggested green sunfish as forage for LMB...right ? As for HSB forage, I'm staying with a Tilapia / Crappie mix, those three seem to like my open water. My Bgill are for the LMB...they like the shallows adding diversity. Not sure about the Channel Cats, they show up in the oddest places.