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#126968 - 07/30/08 06:38 AM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Shawn Banks]
Merdav Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 18
Loc: New York
We have no sewers just drywells, which only have a 5000gal capacity so draining 300,000 isnt realistic.
I sincerly doubt it has ever been dredged before either.
I have read about underwater air diffusers which would seem fairly simply to install but I'm not sure if it would help my situation.
Also I spoke to a local pond specialist yesterday who suggested a wetland bog filtration system for the bargain price of 20K which he swears will work but just isnt in the budget.

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#126982 - 07/30/08 09:40 AM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Merdav]
JHFV Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/20/04
Posts: 150
Loc: ENNIS TEXAS
Put some coontail in it and that green water will go away! Always does in my pond. Dang it. All of the people here would love to have water that look like that. Mine starts out that color every spring until the coontail sucks her in and leaves me with a clear aquarium! My pond is 2 1/2 acres. J/K about the coontail. Dont put it in there, it will eat the bloom but you can never get rid of the coontail. Sorry for the sarcastic post i couldnt help myself.

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#127090 - 07/30/08 09:50 PM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: JHFV]
Shawn Banks Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 288
Loc: Northwest MO
Merdav,

I have no experience with what I'm about to tell you, but here it goes: they have flaoting islands on the market now. You might look into these. I saw a pretty interesting presentation at last year's Pond Boss conf from the guy who developed them. Quite simply, you install the island (different sizes available) and plant whatever you want on it. The plants grow and draw the nutrients from the pond. It's essentially nutrient harvesting. You can then remove the plants from the island. Maybe you grow flowers and pick them. Maybe you grow vegetables and eat them. Maybe you grow other plants and smoke them or sell them for the purchase of the bog system! Actually, they were able to grow terrestrial grasses, corn, tomatoes, wetland plants, and even cacti.

Really, though, you should consider doing some research on the floating islands. They seem pretty cool. I will have real-world experience with them this time next year. We're going to use them on two, separate neighborhood association ponds beginning next spring. Get this, both clients came to me about using them so there must be some good stuff about them on the internet.

Let me know if you find anything interesting. Since the presentation last year, I haven't had time to further research them (price, brands, etc). This is one of my winter to-do tasks since we will be using two of them. The underlying theories behind they do and how they work make a lot of sense. Like most things, fine-tuning the technique to each system takes patience (types of plants to plant, how big of an island, the degree of nutrient saturation in the pond, etc).
_________________________

-----------------
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" Albert Einstein

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#127094 - 07/30/08 10:10 PM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Shawn Banks]
Rad Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 957
Loc: Chumpon Thailand
Merdav,
Since we have stepped in to radical idea land, here is a thought.
It looks like you place is fairly large and is very green. Would it be possible to irrigate your property with the pond? Might take all summer to bring it to a level that can be dredged but, if your area is large enough it might work, plus you would be putting all of the nutrient to work around your place. An inch of water on one acre is about 27,000 gallons.

I know it is a difficult decision to make to drain, I have done partials twice and both times hated it.
_________________________
1/4 & 3/4 acre ponds. A thousand miles from no where and there is no place I want to be...
Dwight Yoakam

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#127105 - 07/30/08 11:21 PM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Rad]
Shawn Banks Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 288
Loc: Northwest MO
Here's a link that discusses the floating islands.

http://www.floatingislandinternational.com/

I'm always looking for alternatives to chemical treatments. The islands seem like they might have some utility.
_________________________

-----------------
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" Albert Einstein

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#127140 - 07/31/08 11:06 AM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Shawn Banks]
Greg Grimes Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 05/03/02
Posts: 3973
Loc: Ball Ground, GA
BTW n8fly here sells them http://www.hbpondmanagement.com
_________________________
Greg Grimes
www.lakework.com

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#127163 - 07/31/08 12:56 PM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Greg Grimes]
Rainman Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame

Lunker

Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 6935
Loc: St Louis, MO area
I spoke with Merdav and hope he won't mind me sharing some of the converstaion. His pond is located on Long Island, New York.
That being said, there are restrictions on him that would make most of us here go postal. No possibilty of dredging or draining exhists. The water source is not even really known, possibly from a spring or ground water table.

We are getting a chance to be VERY creative here in finding solutions that are not outrageously expensive.

Let's get out the tin foil hats and get creative, as it appears our percentage of smaller (forgive me) Koi-type pond owners is increasing. I think their knowledge can help us a great deal and visa-versa.
_________________________
Rainman

www.TilapiaStockers.com


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#128107 - 08/06/08 08:18 AM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Rainman]
Merdav Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 18
Loc: New York
From everyone who I spoke with and with my new found knowledge of ponds it seems that my problem is stemming from years and years of debris and lack of lower water oxegyn in my pond.
So this is my plan: I'm going to get a dumpster which were going to put next to the pond with the drain door toward the pond.
I'm going to rent a diaphram garbage pump and from a row boat were going to try and suck some of the silt off the bottem and into a 20 yard dumpster, and allow the water to flow back into the pond.
Than I have 2 waterfalls which currently pull water from the top just to pump the waterfalls,andrelocate the pump toward the center of the pond on the bottem, put the pump in bucket with holes on the bottme to keep the mud from getting in them. This will hopefully start pulling the lower colder water through the waterfalls and circulate that water to the top.
Than Im considering a fountain with a summersable pump to elimanate any noise, which will also sit near the bottem to aid in pulling the lower water up and aerating the water as it's dispersed through the fountain.
Alot of work and pretty aggressive, does anyone think this may work? Good, bad, or indifferent opinions are appreciated.

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#128113 - 08/06/08 09:08 AM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Merdav]
Ted Lea FOREVERGREEN Offline
Lunker

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 969
Loc: NA
Merdav, We have spoke several times on the phone about this,The last conversation a commercial company was being considered. I think youll find the silt being removed very "liquidfied"and may run out of an end gate type dumpster about as fast as you put it in. I realize your in a sensetive neighborhood so be aware that the smell may be intense.Stir the bottom on a small scale and take a whiff and then consider that many,many times over. I think with the amout of solids and sulfide your going to circulate you will loose all of your fish (perhaps a good thing per our conversation)Are you considering a garbage pump or a trash pump as I dont think a trash pump will pick up the solids before taking in mostly water. A garbage pump (?) may be different.Also check with the dumpster folks as if you did fill a 20 yard dumpster I dont think they could reload it or legally (weight wise) take it off of your property and it may have lots of "stuff" running out of the end doors. I may be missing something here so keep the info coming.

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#128114 - 08/06/08 09:09 AM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Merdav]
Scott Trava Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 182
Loc: Wurtsboro N.Y.
I would rethink your method of removing debris it will not work even if you crack the door a couple of inches. When you try to pump off the bottom the hose will clog and become very heavy and hard to manage. You will have to keep a proper mixture of water and solids for the pump to work the hose will gain a weight of 12 pounds per foot and sink.

Wait till you have the time and $ to dredge the pond 20 yds will not reduce the nutrient load.On average a 1 acre pond that is 30 years old will need 250 yds removed. This will vary with watershed and bio mass load from surronding area.

Good Luck
_________________________
Scott Trava
Catskill Pond
http://catskillpond.com
scott@catskillpond.com
Returning Catskill Waters To A Simpler Time
EST. 1923

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#128206 - 08/06/08 03:14 PM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Scott Trava]
Scott Trava Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 182
Loc: Wurtsboro N.Y.
Hello Mike
This is in response to our telephone call today as far as an aeration system getting rid of your nutrients and cleaning the bottom not likely in your situation , to make that claim you would have to see core samples of the bottom and distinguish how much is solids and what the bio mass load is aeration does not break down dirt. you need proper bottom placement and DEPTH. We have had systems installed in Graydon Pool Ridgewood N.J. 1962 Maple Lake Wyckoof N.J. 1967 These were swimming lakes with heavy run off and a usage rate of 1200 people per day 75% kids and the only one still in use is Graydon wich gets regular well water fed in and the bottom cleaned. Maple lake became to much to handle and now has housing.

You have what I call the urban soup bowl all the nutrients from your neighbors lawns goes straight to you and how about that new dyed mulch. Your Battle is won buy removing sediment and then an aeration system.

I will send you the E mail for Jeff Marcus he contacted us a year ago he is located in East Setauket N.Y. He was reffered to us by another customer he called and explained the size and and where he wanted to put the dirt. I told him We would need a permit and ballparked the job around $16,00 with everything to grass.
There was a long silence and a reply about leaving $100,000 on the table. I then asked where he was when I found out that he was in East setauket the greed light went on. The man was so smoked screen by government guide lines some big time dirt mover from another state that was going to pump treat water etc etc.

After making some suggestions last year he is now the proud owner of an ole fashion dredge permit and will probably cut out the greed, and get a good job at a fair price.

The solution to your pond is to get rid of the water and keep it dry you will have to use your immagination but i am sure you have a spot.
Use a plastic mixing tub [purchase at mason supply] rest that on top of mud set a 3/4 hp pump inside and 1 1/4 line and discharge water move tub as water drops to just above mud use a pump with auto float. After a couple of weeks mud will start to crack at this time make yourself a path from the driveway to the pond with 2 layers of nylon filter fabric 12 foot wide and 8 inches of stone on top this will keep trucks from sinking and making a mess on the main road[ after job the stone can be pushed into pond]

Hire a hoe for the day and cut channels into the mud to drain off to where your pump is . You might get lucky and dump a load of rip rap at the shore and clean the pond out from there.

The key is to get as much water out of the dirt as possible you might have to drain for another month to dry out I doubt there is a spring it is just an old silted up pond. Remeber you also run the chance of opening up a drain course so dont get greedy

I think the only permit you will need since the pond is not impounded and no trout streams by or runoff to the bay is a dirt removal permit from the town. I would call local top soil makers or garden outlets to haul dirt away for free when dried for a year and miked with mulch and lime they will make a nice profit at $90.00 a yard also check with dumpster company for free removal. If the building department wants sanitary transport just line dumps with poly.

Good Luck
I think you said you have water falls to keep some alge in check a couple of #8 bare copper wire in falls will give you some help or a floating corker pvc and copper wires in pond


Edited by Scott Trava (08/06/08 04:00 PM)
_________________________
Scott Trava
Catskill Pond
http://catskillpond.com
scott@catskillpond.com
Returning Catskill Waters To A Simpler Time
EST. 1923

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#128213 - 08/06/08 04:37 PM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Scott Trava]
Merdav Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 18
Loc: New York
Thanks for that Scott, hopefully when you get out to LI next week you will see my situation is not going to allow any draining to that degree.
Water disposal around here is a big deal, we dont have sewers and the ground is such a hard clay the drainage is very minimal. The law here reads that each resident is responsable for thier water drainage and that it can not be pumped into any street basin. The former owners here were fined twice for just trying to lower the pond level after a heavy rain week.
Whatever needs to be done here will be an idea outside the box, maybe not a perfect solution but something better than I have now. Instead of my dumpster idea, how about a cesspool truck which is enclosed so no smell and can handle silt with its pump, the trucks can hold 5000 gallons. I know it would also suckup alot of water but maybe 1 or 2 loads dragging the vacuum hose across the bottom a few times could get a decent amount of the silt out?

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#128214 - 08/06/08 04:40 PM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Merdav]
Merdav Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 18
Loc: New York
Good Luck
I think you said you have water falls to keep some alge in check a couple of #8 bare copper wire in falls will give you some help or a floating corker pvc and copper wires in pond
Scott Trava
Catskill Pond
http://catskillpond.com
scott@catskillpond.com

Copper wire? really? Never heard of a floating corker pvc, that something I would make?

Did you ever hear of this pond magician stuff?
http://www.effens.com/pond-magician.php?gclid=CJqpgOWJ-pQCFQQrFQodth93qw
sound desperate dont i \:\)

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#128228 - 08/06/08 05:26 PM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Merdav]
Merdav Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 18
Loc: New York
I know you guys like photos, here's just two small shovels of whats on the bottom.





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#128240 - 08/06/08 06:04 PM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Merdav]
Russ Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 1011
Loc: Ulster Park, NY
Merdav,

At times, there has been some discussion related to muck removal using bacterial agents. Here is a link to one such post. See Bing's post on page 2. Read, digest, draw your own conclusions.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=126963&fpart=1


Russ


Edited by Russ (08/06/08 06:16 PM)

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#128250 - 08/06/08 07:38 PM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Russ]
Scott Trava Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 182
Loc: Wurtsboro N.Y.
I would bake that at 350 for six hours . The Honey Dipper is probably quite pricey and when they start sucking rocks they stop I doubt they would drop a hose. I am sure you can get a permit to drain if your tight with your neighbors have them suggest to the town for a cleanout if there are no fire hydrants in the area push for a draft pond.

Never quit there is always a way Good Luck
How about telling your neighbors you will water their lawn for free dump a ton of lime in and good size pump and 1000 foot of black pipe and you could probably get rid of 10,000 gallons a night


Edited by Scott Trava (08/06/08 07:45 PM)
_________________________
Scott Trava
Catskill Pond
http://catskillpond.com
scott@catskillpond.com
Returning Catskill Waters To A Simpler Time
EST. 1923

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#128322 - 08/07/08 08:39 AM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Scott Trava]
Merdav Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 18
Loc: New York
Another interesting thing I noticed yesterday when I was shoveling up a few scoops of my pond muck, every time I pushed the shovel into the bottom tons of bubbles keep coming up, I dont know if this means anything but I just thought I would throw that in.

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#128323 - 08/07/08 08:40 AM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Merdav]
Theo Gallus Online   content
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 12369
Loc: Central Ohio
"Gases of decomposition" - probably Methane or Hydrogen Sulfide. Pretty typical for muck.
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#128546 - 08/08/08 05:12 PM Re: Very green water little visibility [Re: Merdav]
Scott Trava Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 182
Loc: Wurtsboro N.Y.
Ok This might be a shot in the dark we were getiing a on site fuel delivery[ off road diesel $4.89 a gallon] I engaged in a conversation with the owner after letting him know what a crook he was on his fuel prices. He has another buissness that has a trailer mounted dirt reclamation system that burns the dirt that is contaminated from tank removal at gas stations.
He says there is a similar unit that evaporates water and is mobile mounted on a forty foot trailer that he thinks does 10,000 gallons per hour I am sure some one on this forum might codify this piece of information
_________________________
Scott Trava
Catskill Pond
http://catskillpond.com
scott@catskillpond.com
Returning Catskill Waters To A Simpler Time
EST. 1923

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