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#127711 - 08/03/08 01:25 PM Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn
Theo Gallus Online   content
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I caught this gravid female BG Friday night (August 1, 2008):


I recall Bruce or possibly Dr. Dave asking if anyone had evidence of BG spawning up North after July 15. I don't remember if they were looking for females on the nest or just gravid females. Anyway, I wanted to present this piece of possible evidence and get the discussion rolling (or spawning) again.
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#127713 - 08/03/08 01:32 PM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn [Re: Theo Gallus]
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That's cool!

Here's my suspicion after lots of thinking.

I believe that the further north you go, the less likely you are to have females produce a second batch of eggs. I've fileted thousands from certain ponds around here and never seen eggs after August 1.

BUT....I think that the better condition (good nutrition especially) the fish are, the more likely you are to start getting exceptions. I think it's like any other animal in nature. Give them lots of food, and their systems thinks it might be beneficial to produce more young. Your fish is obviously really well fed.

I've been harvesting females for the last three weeks now, and I've cleaned 50 of them so far without finding eggs, but I'm afraid to do it in my own ponds. I caught one last night that looked like it might have eggs.

On the other hand I caught some males that looked like they might have eggs, too. \:\)
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#127721 - 08/03/08 03:42 PM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn [Re: Bruce Condello]
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Out-of-Season Spawning of Sunfish Lepomis spp.

in the Laboratory

CHARLES C. MISCHKE' AND JOSEPH E. MORRIS

Copyright hy the American Fisheries Society 1997



Female bluegills

began spawning within 3 months of the initiation

of the water temperature and photoperiod

regimes, and several females spawned more than

once (up to five times per female) over a 5-month

period.



http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=61279&fpart=1

Neff study ppg 283.

Repeat spawning

To ascertain if repeat spawners showed consistency in their nest
position, in the years 19881990, 1993 and 2002 a total of 901
parentals were tagged using Floy brand T-tags inserted into the
muscle directly below the dorsal fin on the left side of the body.
The study site was monitored for the duration of the spawning
season and the nest position of repeat spawners was recorded. In
most cases in which males spawned a second time in a breeding
season they were not remeasured. Thus, while we had repeat
measures of nest position, we did not have a second estimate of egg
score, male length, condition or ear tab area.

pg. 384

Of the 901 tagged males, 119 (13%) nested a second
time during a single breeding season (Table 3). Seven of
115 males (6%) that nested colonially in their first
breeding attempt switched to nest solitarily in their second
breeding attempt, and none of the 4 males (0%) that
nested solitarily in their first breeding attempt switched to
nest colonially.

Neff link

http://publish.uwo.ca/%7Ebneff/papers/Solitary_nesting_in_bluegill.pdf


I believe both male and female BG can easily spawn more than once a in a spawning season. I have looked and not found a good answer as to why some would and others not. I suspect their are many factors in addition to water temperature and photoperiod
that go into BG spawning times and duration. When I ask Bill about female BG spawning more than once in a year he reminded me that many fish carry eggs in several stages of development at the same time ( fractional spawners). Any thoughts?


Your BG is another data point on the matter. One point of note from the Neff article which was from Canada is that all of the females did not spawn at the same time (some spawned later with the males on their second spawn) or these females spawned more than once. If BG females spawn based on a certain amount of time elapsing from the onset of the correct water temperature and photoperiod why would some wait a month later than that to spawn.
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#127780 - 08/03/08 10:12 PM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn [Re: ewest]
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Do you suppose that we could get Joe Morris to attend a PB conference and him give some sort of presntation about BG? I think it would be neat to meet and talk with him. HE has lots and lots and lots of research experience with BG.
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#127785 - 08/03/08 10:18 PM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn [Re: Bill Cody]
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Every once in a while, I ask myself "why do I hang out with these guys?"

This is one of those rare moments.

Bill, if dude (Joe Morris) is into bluegill, and you guys reach out to him, he might think he's gone to heaven knowing there are others out there.
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#127790 - 08/03/08 10:29 PM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn [Re: Sunil]
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Could you imagine getting Morris and Neff to do a tag team talk on BG at the PB conv. We could sell Bruce a ticket for $500.
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#127792 - 08/03/08 10:36 PM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn [Re: ewest]
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We should get Theo and possibly Bruce to participate in the fish cleaning article. Dueling fillet knives - who can get the most meat filleted from an 8" BG?. Each guy fillets one side of the fish and the fillets weighed to the nearest microgram. And the winner is ...... Cecil? Darn those taxidermy knives are sharp!


Edited by Bill Cody (08/03/08 10:41 PM)
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#127796 - 08/03/08 10:43 PM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn [Re: Bill Cody]
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I will submit my 2nd cleaned BG of the day for that competition. Cleaning fish is like bowling for me - the first one's a warmup, the second is the best, and after that it will likely go downhill.

Of course, Bruce can clean 30 or 40 in the time it takes me to do 2. But who leaves the scale-less skin on so you get all the vitamins? Moi. :P


Edited by Theo Gallus (09/23/08 11:54 AM)
Edit Reason: spilling
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#127800 - 08/03/08 10:53 PM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn [Re: Theo Gallus]
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WRT Northern BG reproduction, we have several possible scenarios (or contributing scenarios, since they need not be exclusive):

1. One major spawn with fractionally late bloomers being left behind in growth, perhaps spectacularly, to present a much smaller class of YOY going into Winter.

2. Well spread out rolling spawn where female BG only lay one batch of eggs (perhaps in split portions over time?), but some BG hatch much later in the Summer than others.

3. Actually multiple clutches of eggs developed by (some) females.

(Did I miss any?)

I think the higher number scenarios above are more likely to occur down South than farther North.

Thing is, I'm not sure it matters to the BG which of these split-YOY size causes occur. They get a spread of YOY BG going into (and hence coming out of) Winter, giving a little spread to their reproductive pattern and, like with a shotgun, giving them more chances for some of the offspring to hit the sweet spot of growth this year or next.

I'm not sure it matters to me either, except that I want to know what's going on.
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#127806 - 08/03/08 11:22 PM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn [Re: Theo Gallus]
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 Originally Posted By: Theo Gallus

I'm not sure it matters to me either, except that I want to know what's going on.



And with that we have the essence of pondbossing.
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#127830 - 08/04/08 09:08 AM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn [Re: davatsa]
Shorty Offline
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 Quote:
1. One major spawn with fractionally late bloomers being left behind in growth, perhaps spectacularly, to present a much smaller class of YOY going into Winter.


Theo, I'll toss this picture in for discussion as this BG and his siblings we present after ice out in early spring at our pond.


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#127834 - 08/04/08 09:13 AM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn [Re: davatsa]
Dave Willis Offline

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Thanks for posting that picture, Theo!

We have been trawling (small mesh surface trawl) for larval bluegills in some SD and NE waters for several years. We have to add a fourth option to Theo's list: among-year differences.

We track both catches (number per water volume) of newly hatched bluegill larvae and then we [well, not we -- the students have to do the work :)] pull the otoliths and estimate hatching dates.

In both our SD and NE waters, we have years with what appear to be clear, multiple spawns. The most we have found is three spawns. Other years, in the same waters, we find only a single "peak" in larval abundance, indicating one primary spawn or a rolling spawn. Usually, we think of the rolling spawn idea, as we get low numbers of larvae before and after that big peak.

Moderator's note: That was Shorty's pic.



Edited by Theo Gallus (08/04/08 11:28 AM)
Edit Reason: Too many Steves
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#127838 - 08/04/08 09:27 AM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn [Re: Dave Willis]
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What a bunch of absolute FREAKS. Sunil, you are dropping the ball here. Sheesh.

Dueling fillet knives, now that sounds like a good Pond Boss Conference event. Can't you picture several fish cleaning stations lined up. A nice sized BG on each table. Bruce, Theo, Nate, Young Blood, and several other Pond Boss Fillet Masters standing at the ready with their fillet knife of choice poised for the attack. Tom G standing nearby with his Micro Channel Lock Pliers ready for any necessary repair. The audience garbed in their Pond Boss aprons to ward off any potential flying fish goo. Brettski in a referee's uniform, microphone in hand, ensuring that everyone knows what is expected of them. Sunil passing out adult beverages to ensure that the crowd has the proper "attitude" for this event.

Dang, brings a tear to my eye just thinging about it.

You know it just occured to me that I might be a freak as well.
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#127839 - 08/04/08 09:35 AM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn [Re: Dave Willis]
ewest Offline
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Theo said : "I think the higher number scenarios above are more likely to occur down South than farther North."

Not sure about the question. Do you mean #s 2 and 3 or bigger total egg/hatch #s.

If the second then the conclusion seems to be contrary to the data I have read. BG egg/fry #s from the studies for reproductive ability are based on yearly #s. For example in one text that shows locations and amounts of eggs/fry the per spawn #s are much higher up north. #s like 80,000 per event where as the southern #s are in the 15,000 ish. This would account for the different scenarios - ie one big spawn up north using the entire egg capability and down south several spawns with 1/5th of the egg capacity each time (15,000 X 5 = 75,000).



Edited by ewest (08/04/08 09:50 AM)
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#127842 - 08/04/08 09:47 AM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling S [Re: Theo Gallus]
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Theo, That single sided bluegill was someones mother! \:\(
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#127850 - 08/04/08 10:10 AM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling S [Re: Dwight]
Dave Willis Offline

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OK, I'm going to post quite a bit. Sorry about that. I may get moderated??

Here is a summary from our work in the two states:

Spawning periodicity, hatching duration, and peak larval densities were described for bluegill in five lakes of the northern Great Plains in Nebraska and South Dakota, USA from 2004 to 2007. Hatching generally began in early June and duration ranged from 28 to 77 days, indicating protracted spawning. Peak larval density was highly variable among lakes and years and was primarily unimodal, with peaks occurring from late June to July. Peak larval density ranged from 2 to 1,760 larvae/ 100m3. Multimodal peaks in abundance occurred in four instances. Although multiple peaks in larval abundance within years were noted at southern latitudes, there were also many instances of a single peak. Larval density and spawning duration were generally lower than other reported studies of bluegill from southern latitudes although geographic location alone did not consistently explain these patterns.

Now, only crazies should continue past this point. Following is the discussion, where we relate our work to other published literature. Sorry for the technical writing, but I suspect some of you will appreciate this.

Bluegills are typically assumed to be synchronous, colonial spawners that exhibit a protracted spawning season, although a small percentage (4.5 7.0%) will nest solitarily (Gross & MacMillan 1981; Neff et al. 2004). Our results generally indicated a single peak of larval abundance in most years and lakes, with a few exceptions. Although there are many examples of multiple peaks in larval bluegill abundance or direct observations of multiple spawning bouts, examples of years with a single peak in larval density are also plentiful at many geographic locations (Table 2). The frequency of sampling in our study (i.e. 7-10 d) is likely adequate to identify potential multiple peaks in abundance. Gross & MacMillan (1981) reported adult male bluegill guarding their brood for 7 d, although elevated turbidity precluded direct observation of bluegill spawning or nesting activity in our study. The use of a 1,000-μm mesh trawl is likely effective at capturing newly hatched bluegill (Isermann et al. 2002). Beard (1982) reported a range of four to eleven spawning bouts in three Wisconsin lakes. Dominey (1981) reported that bluegill breeding synchrony was greater within colonies than among colonies. He noted that even neighboring colonies may cycle out of phase. Consequently, the ability to detect distinct spawning events may be limited as a result of potential asynchronous colony spawning events. In addition, daily age estimates have a margin of error of approximately 7 d. This may lead to a loss of resolution on specific hatching days. Notwithstanding, we contend that potential multiple peaks in hatching would be visible with our sampling method, as is supported by our data in most instances.

Larval abundances in our study impoundments were relatively low when compared to those reported in other studies (Table 2). Thus, a plausible hypothesis is that a longer spawning season at lower latitudes may lead to increased larval densities. Beard (1982) reported that longer spawning seasons (mediated by appropriate water temperatures) resulted in a greater number of individual spawning periods in Wisconsin. We found several instances of larval densities from lower latitudes up to 20-fold higher than our observations but most observations were within two to three times of our estimates (Table 2). In addition, several studies at higher latitudes reported lower densities than we encountered. Generally, bluegill populations at lower latitudes may have the potential to reach relatively high larval densities in some years but may also exhibit lower densities comparable to our study. A suite of factors may interact in complex ways, leading to variable larval densities and subsequent recruitment. As a result, direct comparisons to previous research are challenging. Interacting factors may include abiotic factors such as physical habitat, temperature, and weather (Beard 1982; Pope et al. 1996; Jackson & Noble 2000; Casselman et al. 2002), and biotic factors such as food availability and competition (Partridge & DeVries 1999; Rettig & Mittelbach 2002), predation (Houde 1987; Gray et al. 1998; Santucci & Wahl 2003) and lake productivity (Latta & Merna 1977).
The larval duration (as a surrogate of spawning season) in our study ranged from one to two months. In general, latitude and larval duration were negatively correlated (r = -0.81; Table 2). The expected, extended spawning season was observed in Crane Lake, Indiana, where larval bluegills were collected from early June to early September (Werner 1969). Beard (1982) reported bluegill spawning durations from 31 d to 112 d in three Wisconsin lakes. Chvala (2000), who evaluated the reproductive biology of bluegill in two Nebraska Sandhill lakes, found that while larvae were initially collected in both lakes during June, the spawning season was relatively extended in one lake compared with the other. Newly hatched (i.e., 46 mm) larvae were collected at Cozad Lake between June 5 and July 24, while newly hatched larvae were only collected from Pelican Lake between June 25 and July 9. Egg-diameter distributions from bluegill ovaries in both lakes had multiple modes, indicating multiple-spawning (i.e., fractional spawning) capabilities. We did not observe the expected inverse relation between latitude and frequency of bluegill spawning bouts. While three or more spawning bouts were common in more southerly waters, we also found evidence of three spawning bouts in one South Dakota study impoundment. However, even at this more northerly latitude, the influence of latitude could not actually be discerned as we found substantial inter-annual variation in the number of spawning bouts within a water body. Thus, geographic location alone certainly does not explain the frequency of bluegill spawning and this topic certainly warrants further investigation.



\:\) -- --


Edited by ewest (08/04/08 10:24 AM)
Edit Reason: to add color and emotion
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#127854 - 08/04/08 10:22 AM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling S [Re: Dave Willis]
ewest Offline
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Thanks Dave. Is that published ? See my moderation of the post at the end. \:D


Archives on this one when everyone is finished.



Edited by ewest (08/04/08 10:26 AM)
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#127862 - 08/04/08 10:43 AM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn [Re: Bill Cody]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Do you suppose that we could get Joe Morris to attend a PB conference and him give some sort of presntation about BG? I think it would be neat to meet and talk with him. HE has lots and lots and lots of research experience with BG.


Great Idea! Joe is a nice guy too!
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#127863 - 08/04/08 10:49 AM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn [Re: Cecil Baird1]
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I observed a few males on beds in my all male bluegill pond the other day. Very few however and not like the quantity that were on the beds in early July.

Of course the fact that there aren't any females cold skew the data...
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#127868 - 08/04/08 10:57 AM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn [Re: Cecil Baird1]
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Ewest -- Bob Lusk has always said I could use a little more color and emotion. \:\) Darn scientists -- we breed that stuff out of ourselves.

I'll email a draft copy of the manuscript. Submitted but not published yet. You'll want to see Table 2. I tried to post it here, but it was too complex (not to mention dry and color-less).
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#127878 - 08/04/08 11:30 AM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling Spawn [Re: ewest]
Theo Gallus Online   content
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 Originally Posted By: ewest
Theo said : "I think the higher number scenarios above are more likely to occur down South than farther North."

Not sure about the question. Do you mean #s 2 and 3 or bigger total egg/hatch #s.

If the second then the conclusion seems to be contrary to the data I have read. BG egg/fry #s from the studies for reproductive ability are based on yearly #s. For example in one text that shows locations and amounts of eggs/fry the per spawn #s are much higher up north. #s like 80,000 per event where as the southern #s are in the 15,000 ish. This would account for the different scenarios - ie one big spawn up north using the entire egg capability and down south several spawns with 1/5th of the egg capacity each time (15,000 X 5 = 75,000).

I meant option 3 or maybe 2 were more likely down South in my estimation.
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#127879 - 08/04/08 11:31 AM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling S [Re: Dwight]
Theo Gallus Online   content
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 Originally Posted By: Dwight
Theo, That single sided bluegill was someones mother! \:\(


Now, she's somebody's dinner.
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#127880 - 08/04/08 11:37 AM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling S [Re: Dave Willis]
Theo Gallus Online   content
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 Originally Posted By: Dave Willis
Now, only crazies should continue past this point.

Did anybody stop reading?
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#127989 - 08/05/08 11:30 AM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling S [Re: Theo Gallus]
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 Originally Posted By: Theo Gallus
 Originally Posted By: Dave Willis
Now, only crazies should continue past this point.

Did anybody stop reading?


Yes.
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#128028 - 08/05/08 03:04 PM Re: Northern BG: Multiple Spawns or just Rolling S [Re: Theo Gallus]
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On further review; I see a bit of forehead meat that you missed. \:\)
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