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Several things are thought to greatly reduce the success of cuckoldry to very low %s in non-overfished ponds. They include all the advantages that a large BG male has (nest location , better condition , sperm differences) and the strong likelihood that BG males can tell their young apart from the young of others and eat them and the probable abandonment of their nest (thus no young survival) if they contain large amounts of eggs which are not fertilized by them. In addition it is though that cuckolder %s are further reduced because they remain subject to predation as a result of their reduced size. So this has me thinking about selective harvest. Is this part of the reason why keeping the largest fish and culling the medium sized fish is beneficial to a pond? I see that recommend very often here on Pond Boss. Keeping the largest fish ensures that the best genetics will be passed on, will somewhat reduce the possibility of cuckolding (not sure if that is the correct terminology), and make energy use of the prime breeders more efficient because less energy is expended in both defending a nest and raising fish that are not it's own young?
JHAP
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"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
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Jeff,
To some extent..yes. The primary reason for thinning intermediates is due to resource availability. Removing mouths so that existing mouths have more to eat.
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"Imagination is more important than knowledge" Albert Einstein
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Jeff I think you are following along well. Thanks for joining in. If we don't stretch out and seek the answer we never improve our knowledge. The only difference is I started on this learning curve a few years earlier than you. Its about the journey. Jeff,
To some extent..yes. The primary reason for thinning intermediates is due to resource availability. Removing mouths so that existing mouths have more to eat. That is a prime way to manage the bioenergetics of energy flow to the fish i.e. ; the same amount of total energy is allocated to growth, reproduction, foraging , and basal metabolism but among fewer users = more growth and less stress to the fish's other functions (better efficiency).
Last edited by ewest; 07/28/08 01:09 PM.
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Very interesting thread. There are a couple of "big picture" thoughts I would like to share although they might have been better posted earlier in the thread.
Three laws of thermodynamics- easily remembered and understood as if they applied to a poker game. 1)YOU CAN'T WIN;2)YOU CAN'T BREAK EVEN 3)YOU CAN'T GET OUT OF THE GAME. Translates as 1)conservation of energy, you can't get more out of an exchange than you put in. 2) Some energy is always wasted in any energy transaction-why you can't build a perpetual motion machine. 3) You cannot reach absolute zero temperature- not really relevant to our discussion.
SURVIVAL OF THE SEXIEST-a concept from my evolutionary biology course in the past. BG cuckholding is a perfect example when it occurs. Those organisms that can inject their genes into the next generation in the largest numbers will constitute the following generations, no matter how much skulduggery is involved in doing so. Makes monogamy not a very good survival technique for human males given that our social safety net for raising children makes them superfluous for infant survival-where are those sabertoothed tigers anyway?
Layton Runkle
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No, Shawn, no answers at all. Somehow, some ponds just seem to not produce as big bluegills as others (in my experience). I can never see anything visible or measured (productivity) that would explain it. I was hoping that solving the 7-inch bluegill problem would be a contribution. Solving the 9 15/16 inch bluegill problem will have to fall to you???? 
Subscribe to Pond Boss MagazineFrom Bob Lusk: Dr. Dave Willis passed away January 13, 2014. He continues to be a key part of our Pond Boss family...and always will be.
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Shawn, Some (unknown how much) of your problem of fish seeming to hit a growth limit blockade could be with the genetics. Your fish may be reaching their genetic potential at 9.9". Genetic potential could have been started or inherent with the history of the stockers or much of it could have evolved in the existing location or some of both; depending. Different forms of selective harvest or mortality could have favored smaller individuals that perpetuated the size structure of the population long term. You could be seeing the affects. Everything depends on something else.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/29/08 10:05 PM.
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Very interesting thread. There are a couple of "big picture" thoughts I would like to share although they might have been better posted earlier in the thread.
Three laws of thermodynamics- easily remembered and understood as if they applied to a poker game. 1)YOU CAN'T WIN;2)YOU CAN'T BREAK EVEN 3)YOU CAN'T GET OUT OF THE GAME. Translates as 1)conservation of energy, you can't get more out of an exchange than you put in. 2) Some energy is always wasted in any energy transaction-why you can't build a perpetual motion machine. 3) You cannot reach absolute zero temperature- not really relevant to our discussion.
SURVIVAL OF THE SEXIEST-a concept from my evolutionary biology course in the past. BG cuckholding is a perfect example when it occurs. Those organisms that can inject their genes into the next generation in the largest numbers will constitute the following generations, no matter how much skulduggery is involved in doing so. Makes monogamy not a very good survival technique for human males given that our social safety net for raising children makes them superfluous for infant survival-where are those sabertoothed tigers anyway?
Great post. Nicely stated, and I actually understand it.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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2) Some energy is always wasted in any energy transaction-why you can't build a perpetual motion machine. Oh, sure NOW you tell me Dr. Runkle, there goes seven years of my life and fifty nine dollars and thirty seven cents. Stupid, stupid perpetual motion machine. Great posts I'm enjoying this thread and actually able to follow along (alert the media).
JHAP
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"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
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Great posts I'm enjoying this thread and actually able to follow along (alert the media). I can fix that by lecturing on the effects of Quantum Mechanics on fisheries and the Schrödinger's catfish paradox. 
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling ![[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ed/b5/e7/edb5e7f935843b996cf52be593c9ebd2--smoothie-smooth-collie.jpg)
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2) Some energy is always wasted in any energy transaction-why you can't build a perpetual motion machine.
Nonsense! I have a perpetual motion machine right here. His name is Lance and he is three years old. 
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
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Since I don't want to be a thread killer of a good topic I will add a question. Do fish get more energy efficient as they grow? Use this as a example. Let's say I have 3 indoor tanks and I want to keep 10 lbs of LMB in each. Tank A has 10 1 lb fish, tank B has 5 2lb fish, tank C has 2 5lb fish. Lets say I only want to maintain the current weights, no gain or loss. Which tank would need the most feed? My gut tells me tank A would need the most feed.
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
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A very good question. My WAG is A because it should take more energy to run the basic metabolism of 10 1 lb fish than 2 5 lb fish. Also more competition with more fish.
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My WAG is about the same. As organisms/critters age and grow, energy efficiency becomes the norm. And, as Layton points, it's never a break even game. That may be ONE of the reasons that large fish become solitary ambush hunters and smaller fish school up to chase shad. Due to the energy expense ratio, the unsuccessful younger members of the population may never become ambush hunters.
There could be other factors besides bioenergetics and this might need a different thread. This involves danger avoidance and very simple learning. While there are other factors involved, the larger fish may be wired to understand, not to remember, efficiency as related to survival. He may also be able to discern that there are often strings attached to good deals. But learned behavior/instinct is the separate thread that I alluded to and it can get long.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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BG sex?
by Bill Cody - 05/16/24 08:50 PM
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