Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site Victor's (and Victoria's) Dream Re-Visited

After some encouragement from Brettski, I am asking for some help with our pond planning. We live on 6.5 acres of mountain ground. There is literally one spot on the property where a pond can go, and it would be no larger than 1/4 acre. That is OK with us. Many of you have done great things with ponds this size.

Goals: A pond we can walk around and watch wildlife. I would put smallmouth and YP in similar to Eric in NY just to populate it with something. Fishing is not as high a priority as just adding to our experience here in the mountains. Admittedly though, it would be cool to fish in it.

Soil: This spot is best described as a boulder field in that there are boulders across the surface to a depth of about two feet. They are anywhere from twenty pounds to three hundred pounds or more. Underneath them is a sandy loam type of soil. I dug down four feet and had a mostly sandy mixture with some clay and then hit very hard soil at about four feet. It was not rock, but required a digging iron to cut into it. The boulders are sandstone. They become less frequent the deeper you dig.

Our house sits on a level area that was excavated into the mountain. When we dig around the house we usually digging into clay. The house foundation where we find the clay is about six feet under the level of where the soil used to be. Not sure if this makes sense, but I feel like there is clay under the four foot level of sandy loam of the test hole. The house and pond site are about 150' apart.

I would like to move all of the boulders off the site, excavate and build, and put the boulders back in if possible.

I took the dirt from the test hole and made a mud ball. I dropped it from head height and it stayed entirely together when it hit the rock I was standing on. When I tried to roll it into a cigar shape, it crumbled.

Water Source: The area where there is a pond would be is where two natural swales converge. It does not get a huge rush of water when it rains, which I think is a good thing. Just enough. Anyway, the test hole was full from rains we had a few weeks ago, but has since started to drain slowly. I believe that a pond would not have a problem filling.

Two folks from the NRCS were up to the site. They liked the slope of the land and the water source, but thought that soils were going to be a challenge. She was up before I dug the test hole.

I plan to aerate. I also plan to have the pond be about two to three feet deep around all sides for ten feet into the center before sloping down into a deeper area. I am not sure how deep we could go, but ten to twelve feet is not out of the question if the slope allows.

Pricing: We have received three prices. The first was over $20,000 and included bringing clay in to construct the dam and cover the bottom. The second was for about $12,000 and had no provision for clay. That builder said that they would build it with whatever clay he could find within the site. I had discussed a liner with him and he suggested that they build it first and add a liner later if it doesn't hold the water. The last price was from a friend who lives a few hours away but who owns his own excavation company. He builds a few farm ponds a year. He thinks he could do it for less than $3,000.

We have not looked at any of the work of any of the three companies yet, but will if we get closer to making a decision. There are two other small ponds in our area with similar soils. Both hold water all year long. One is just an excavated 40' x 20' hole and the other is about 1/4 acre.

We have a three to four foot deep 20' x 14' excavated goldfish pond that requires a liner. Again, it is built in that sandy loam type of soil.

A penny for anyone's thoughts...

If your land was totally flat which it is not and you dug the entire 1/4 acre 10 ft deep that is 4033 yds of dirt. Given that the price per yard is generally just over a dollar at least here in Texas I'd say go with your friend. If all fails you will still have the money to install a liner. I have no experience with the cost of a liner but I would not think 1/4 acre is all that expensive at least not 9k to 17k as the first to quotes are. Good luck Vic keep us posted. And save those rocks you'll have great landscaping for the pond.

Victor...
Shoot us some pics of the lay of the land and tie it into your description.
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I've seen pics of Rocky-T...he's a big one. I'm thinkin' he'll dig that mamu with a Texas shovel for $3K.

Here are some pics. This first is from the deck. If you look closely, you can see surveyor's tape around the outside perimeter of what would be the pond. It probably will not go much further downhill (left) than the existing pond.


The next one helps to better define the elevation:


This is a pic from the pondsite toward the house:


And this is a video of the mud ball:


and a picture of the test hole:

The mud-ball video is freaking me out.

I mean, it's clear. We all have a problem. Victor, a grown & educated man, mind you, has video taped himself dropping a ball of clay onto a rock; then, we've watched that video with interest.

(Victor, how many test holes have you dug?)

Fess up - how many of you were screaming "Bounce! Bounce! BOUNCE!"?

And that's "Mudball 2". What happened to "Mudball 1"? "Mudball 1" is missing - Houston, we have a problem.

You guys are too funny. MudBall 1 was not nearly as exciting as MudBall 2. I missed the rock when I dropped the mud on the first take. In hindsight, perhaps it would have sufficed to describe it, but anyway.

There is just one test hole, about four feet deep and only about four feet long. I had a baby backhoe in there and it was all the farther it wanted to dig. Do you think it is worth getting a real backhoe in there for a bigger dig?

I wonder how much the soil can change within the proposed span of your pond. It might not be a bad idea to dig multiple test pits around the proposed pond site. If you hit an excessively rocky area, it might be best to avoid that area.

I really know nothing about building ponds, but if you have concerns about holding water, I would think that making a clay liner would be the most sure thing.

I would want more than one test hole to check out a pond site, especially if it was the first pond I was building on that property. I dug two deep ones to check out my second pond, and I already had one no-leak pond here and 20 years experience watching water sit on top of the ground where the new pond went (lotsa clay).

As far as depth, I would want to check at least as deep as I was going to dig for the basin or core.

P.S. My mudball sat on the kitchen counter for about 9 months as inspiration between digging testholes and pond construction.

A penny for anyone's thoughts...

I think that would make a great pond site
I think your dogs are hamming it up for the camera
I think Ill have a beer
Where's my three cents,please?

Victor,
I can only relate my experience with our project, but there might be some parallels.
All my pond site soils, as they were presented on the soils map, had the word eroded embedded in the description. No surprise since the property was purchased because I knew that big old bowl full of timber was gonna be my prize. You have the same thing, albeit a somewhat smaller bowl. All the slopes have eroded over the years and slid down to the bottom of the bowl. We were fortunate because I know that there was a thick band of clay beneath it all.
When we would dig down at the tops of the slopes, you would go no deeper than 12" and hit the clay. At the very bottom, near the center of the bowl, we had to dig 6 or 7 feet to hit the same clay band.
Another parallel...
Our first test hole was dug within the bowl. It was done with a track hoe excavator. Man, was I nervous. This link will take you to the photo sequence on our website; page 2 of the album, bottom row.
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Since it takes time and money to bring in an excavator, would it be worth hand digging a sample hole nearer the top of your slope to see what's down there?

Victor,

I just read a story about a ten year old boy who's going to college. The thing that stands out to me is his math teacher said that when he solves a problem, he doesn't put all sorts of barriers up for why he can't do it. He just does it.

You really want a pond. You have a place where you can build a pond. You've spent years trying to figure out why you can't build a pond. I think it's time you just build it.

Dig the hole and make it water tight. If your soil is not able to hold water, either make it so, or get a liner. There is always a way, you just have to decide that it's what you want and then make it happen.

Eddie

Thanks Eddie, and everyone in fact, for the inspiration. We have done exactly what you suggested and just decided to do it. It is such a small site that if we don't find enough clay, we will just use a liner. Elevations were marked a few weeks ago and we are taking some trees down now to help with the layout. The friend who is going to do the work is stopping by tonight and we will look it over again. More to follow...as well as many more questions, probably. Thanks again!

That's great news, Victor...dig in, baby!

Victor

The advice from EddieWalker is the best I ever heard.

OTTO

I agree with Otto. At some point we have to put all the planning and thinking and scientific study and doubts and concerns behind us and

J U S T - D O - I T ! ! !

On a side note, Victor, PA needs you to come to the Pond Boss Convention. So far, it's you and me from the Keystone state?

Pond Boss Convention - Sunil, that would be GREAT! Trust me, we would love to make the trip. If it took me three years to plan this pond, imagine how long it will take to plan a Pond Boss trip. I will live vicariously though you for now. Let me know the day and time and we will lift our glasses to the west...

OK. But just between you and me, not everyone reads this thread, so I'm just going to act like you are coming so we can up our PA count to (2).

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=118955#Post118955

Once I get some further support from our PA brethern, we'll just bring the number back to reality.

Make it 3. Victoria is coming along...

Victor

Let us know how the pond is coming. Hope it is full of water by the POND BOSS CONVENTION. You will really enjoy the time in Texas. Bring more pictures.

OTTO

Sunil, now I don't have the heart to tell Otto we aren't REALLY coming to the convention....see what you started

Uh....I have no recollection of that, Senator.

I think we have found our guy! After getting a few more recommendations and speaking around locally regarding ponds, we called a gentleman about the project. Come to find out he lives about six miles from our place and has built over 100 ponds in his 46-year career as an excavator. I have asked around about him and he is highly respected.

We exchanged some ideas and I am comfortable that he is going to work FOR us while still providing some ideas and suggestions during the project. If the soils do not cooperate once he gets in there and starts to dig, he said he will have a pretty good idea whether it will definitely not hold water or if we have a chance of it holding water. If it is a definitely not, we will prepare the site for a sythetic liner. If he thinks we have a shot to go without the liner, we will give it a try.

Best case - it holds water and we landscape it; Worst case - it doesn't and we line it, THEN landscape it.

We are cutting trees, burning, and preparing as best we can. Found this guy the other day after we almost stepped on him...



Living in the outdoors rocks!

Good news and a great photo!